anAdi
(member)
09/23/06 10:51 AM
Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

When the great sage Srila Veda-Vyasadeva compiled the Vedic literature, he gave in it countless references and supporting evidences establishing the inherent distinction between God and the living entity.

He did also give a few hints in support of the “non-difference” between Ishvara (God) and the jiva – but in contrast to the former were very few indeed.

There is clear and ample indication that Srila Vyasadeva surmised that these few hints would later form the corner stones of Mayavadism, especially in the light that as a self-relised sage and preceptor Srila Vyasadeva has knowledge of past, present and future (trikalajna).

Sri Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasadeva, the compiler of the vedic literature, has declarend in his writings, in the Puranas, that mayavadism is false and non Vedic.

Padma Purana 25.7:

mayavadam asacchastram pracchannam bauddhamuchyate
maya iva vihitam devi kalau brahmana murttina


Maya-vada is an asat zastra – mAyavAdam asacchAstram , and is known – ucyate as disguised Buddhism - pracchanannaM bauddham . O devi in kali yuga voi lua forma unui brAhmaNa - devi kalau brAhmaNa-mUrtinA to teach that by Myself - mayaiva vihitaM

In different sections of Padma Purana, in the earlier part of Kurma Purana and in many other puranas, prophetic declarations such as this are common. In the Padma Purana mayavadism is unequivocally declared non-Vedic, and in this connection Lord Siva delivers a clear-cut declaration in the Padma Purana:
vedarthavan mahasastram mayavadam avaidikam
maya eva kathitam devi jagatam nasakaranat


veda-the Vedas, arthavan-having the meaning in, maha- great, sastram- revealed spiritual books, maya-illusion, vAdam-theory, avaidikam- is non vedic, maya- it’s me, eva- who, kathitam- have told, devi- O’ Goddess, jagatam- of worlds, nAza- the root, karanat- of destruction
Traducere:

The great theory of impersonalism in non-Vedic, though taking its meaning from the Vedas, o’ Goddess. It is I who has told this because it is the root of the destruction of the worlds.

The Supreme Lord Vishnu tells Lord Siva the following as recorded by Vyasadeva in Padma-Purana 42.110:

svagamayAih kalpitais tvam ca janAm mad vimukhAn kkuru
maM ca gopAya yena syAt sRSti hrAsa uttara-uttara


You should appear in Kali yuga among human beings in your partial incarnation and citing false scriptures preach a philosophy to turn men against Me. Make sure to keep My eternal identity and Supreme form as a deep secret. In this way the atheistic population will gradually increase.

mayavadam avaidikam maya eva kathitam devi jagatam nasakaranat


veda-the Vedas, arthavan-having the meaning in, maha- great, sastram- revealed spiritual books, maya-illusion, vAdam-theory, avidikam- is non vedic, maya- it’s me, eva- who, kathitam- have told, devi- O’ Goddess, jagatam- of worlds, nAza- the root, karanat- of destruction

Traducere:

The great theory of impersonalism is non-Vedic, though taking its meaning from the Vedas, o’ Goddess. It is I who has told this because it is the root of the destruction of the worlds.


The quotations come from the Critical Edition of the padma purAna published by Nag Publishers. Nag Publishers has nothing to do with any sectarian group. The same quotes are also in other editions of the padma purAna. There is no evidence that they are interpolated.

Shiva states in the padma purAna that he created the doctrines of Shaivism and pAshupata for the people of Kali Yuga who would have no devotion to the Lord Vishnu. This is not the same as degrading himself. That he knows his position vis-a-vis Vishnu is not self-denigration.

The mayavadism or impersonalism was an alien concept in Vedic ages and therefore does not
find a place as an authentic philosophy int the Vedic literature:


idaM viSNurvi cakrame tredhA ni dadhe padam
samULhamasya pAMsure
|| RV 1.22.17 ||

trINi . vi cakrame viSNurgopA adAbhyaH
ato dharmANi dhArayan
|| RV 1.22.18 ||

As one can see, these mantras name Vishnu as the preserver of the world, and indicate that He traversed the whole world, which is collected as the dust in His footprints. All attributes of a Supreme Deity.

tad viSNoH paramaM padaM sadA pashyanti sUrayaH
divIva cakSurAtatam
|| RV 1.22.20 ||

This states that the seers see always that "Supreme Abode" where SriVishnu reside.

tad viprAso vipanyavo jAgRvAMsaH samindhate
viSNoryat paramaM padam
|| RV 1.22.21 ||

Another reference to the "Supreme Abode" of Vishnu.

Now here is a reference to Vishnu as the creator of the three worlds:

viSNornu kaM vIryANi pra vocaM yaH pArthivAni vimamerajAMsi
yo askabhAyaduttaraM sadhasthaM vicakramANastredhorugAyaH
|| RV 1.154.1 ||

pra tad viSNu stavate vIryeNa mRgo na bhImaH kucaro giriSThAH
yasyoruSu triSu vikramaNeSvadhikSiyanti bhuvanAni vishvA
|| RV 1.152.2 ||

This says that the three worlds abide in Vishnu's three paces. So, again, we have an explicit reference describing Lord Vishnu as the maintainer of the three worlds. That hardly sounds like the function of an administrative devata.

pra viSNave shUSametu manma girikSita urugAyAya vRSNe
ya idaM dIrghaM prayataM sadhasthameko vimame tribhirit padebhiH
|| RV 1.154.3 ||

This is another reference to Vishnu, "who alone made, by three steps, these three worlds."

yasya trii puurNaa madhunaa padaanyakShiiyamaaNaa svadhayaa madanti ya u tridhaatu pR^ithiviim uta dyaam eko daadhaara bhuvanaani vishvaa
|| RV 1.154.4 ||

And yet again, Vishnu as the maintainer of the three worlds.

tA vaM vAstUnyushmasi gamadhyai yatra gAvo bhUrishRN^gAayAsaH
atrAha tadurugAyasya vRSNaH paramaM padamava bhAti bhUri
|| RV 1.154.6 ||

And yet again, the "Supreme station" of Vishnu..

agnirvai devAnamavamo viShNuH paramaH || aitareya brAhmaNa 1.1.1 ||

This says that among devatas, Agni is "lowest" and Vishnu is "highest."

aniravamo devatAnAM viShNuH paramaH
|| taittirIya saMhitA 5.5.1 ||

That's also saying the same thing, that Vishnu is the highest devata!

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH
vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat
|| RV 7.40.5 ||

This makes it abundantly clear that Rudra derives his power from worship of Vishnu!


anAdi
(member)
09/23/06 11:04 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Nowadays some preceptors of the Sankaracarya persuasion consider that Padma Purana statements as quoted above were fraudulent interpolations of the vaishnavas, but the sankhya philosopher and egalitarian Vijnana Bhiksu who lived in the 17-th century disagrees.
In the preface of his book “Sankhya-pravacana bhasya” he has given quotes from Padma Purana that have been given here too. (This appeared on pages 5 and 6 of the preface to Vijnana Biksu’s commentary to “Sankhy darsanam”second edition, published by Sri Jivananda Didyasagara BHattacarya in the Bengali era, 12/16:

astu va papinam jnana pratibandhartham astika darsansv apy amsatah
sruti viruddha artha vyavaytahapanam tesu tesvmasesvapramanyam ca
sruti smrity aviruddhesutu mukyavisayesu pramanyam asti eva ata eva
Padma purane brahmayoga darsana atiriktanam darsananam ninda upapadyate
yatha tatra parvatim pratisvara vakyam


For the purpose of obstruction transmission of knowledge to sinful persons, theistic philosophy has sometimes proffered interpretations that contradict the Vedic view. These sections are mostly unsubstantiated. The major portions, which don not contravene the Vedas, are easy to prove. Thus in Padma Purana, besides criticism of the knowledge of brahman, other philosophies have also been censured. For example In Padma Purana, Mahadeva speaks to his consort Parvati:

sRNu devi pravaksyAmi taMasAni yathAkraman
yeSAm zravaNamAtreNa pAtityaM jJAninAm api
prathamamaM hi mayaiviktaM zaivaM pAzupatAdikam
macchaktyA vezitairvipraiH saMprktAni tataH param

kaNAdena tu saMpraktaM zAstraM vaizsSikaM mahat
gautamena tathAnyAyaM sANkyantu kapilena vai

dvijaManAjaimininA pUrvam veamayArhataH
nirIzvareNa vAdena kRtam zAstraM hahattaram

dhizaNena tathAproktaM cArvAkam atigarhitam
bauddha zastram asat proktaM nagna nIla paTadikam
mAyAvAdam asac chAstraM pracchannaM bauddham eva ca

mayA eva kthitaM devi kalau brAhmaNa rUpinA

apArthaM zrutivAkyAnAM darzayalloka garhitam
karma svArUpatyAjyatvam atra ca pratipAdyate
sarva karma paribharaMzAnnaiSkarmyaM tatra cocyate

parAtma jIvayor aikyam mayA atra pratipAdyate
brAhmaNo’sya paraM rUpaM nirguNaM darzitaM mayA
savasya jagato’pyasya nAzanArthaM kalau yuge
vedArtha van mahA zastraM mAyAvAdam avaidikam
mayaiva kathitam devi jagatAM nAzakAraNAt


O Devi, I shall systematically explain “Tamasa Darshan”, philosophy in the mode of ignorance, hearing which even knowledgeable persons will become confused and diverted. Kindly hear it. The very first concept “pAzupat”, which is a part of the Shaiva-philosophy, is in the mode of ignorance. Brahmanas empowered by me propagated these tamasika philosophies.
The sage Kanada for example, postulated the VaizeSika philosophy.
Gautama compiled the NyAya writings and Kapila, the SAnkhya tradition.
Jaimini compiled the PUrva mImAMsA scripture, which promulgated a false, atheistic view.
Similarly CArvaka put out an equally misleading theory from his imagination.
For the destruction of the demoniac class of men, Lord ViSnu’s incarnation, Buddha, propagated a false teaching.
The mAyAvAda philosophy is a false doctrine disguised as Buddhism.


O Goddess, in the age of Kali, I will appear as a Brahmana and preach this false philosophy. This view is contrary to the Vedic conclusion and is strongly denounced by the mass. In it I have perpetuated the theory of non-action, which urges one to give up life’s activities altogether to attain freedom from reactions. Furthermore, I have established the one-ness of “paramAtma”, Supresoul, with the jiva, as well as the view that Brahman is devoid of attributes. Intending to bring about the absolution of the world in Kali yuga, I habe given mAyAvAda philosophy the stamp of Vedic authority and recognition.

Sri Vijnana Bhiksu then writes:
itiadhikaM tu brahma mImAMsA-bhAzye prapaJcitam asmAbhir iti

More details regarding these points are available in my commentary to Brahma-mimamsa.

It is very important that we undertand this scholar’s background and motivation. Sri Vijnana Bhiksu was intent on establishing a synthesis of all philosophical schools He did not nurture any ill feeling or envy towards Sri Sankaracarya; rather he maintained an objective, unbiased stance and judiciously analysed bothe his merits and demerits. One who is realized in the Absolute Truth unhesitatingly admits both what is true and what is false, but never falls into the illusion of confusing the two.

If pointing out discrepancies in a fabricated, speculative theory is hastily considered as envious behaviour, then Sri Sankaracary himself can be faulted for the same.

Sri Sankaracarya was never censured for calling Sakya Simha Buddha an imbecile. In his commentary to the Braham-Sutra 2.1.32 Sri Sankaracarya wrote:

bahyArtha vijJAna zUnyavAda trayam itaretara virddham upadizata
sugatena spaztIkRtam Atmano’ saMbandha pralApitvam


Sugata Buddha’s statements are incoherent, as if made by one who has lost his faculty of reasoning.

Sri SaNkarAcArya’s slanderous remarks on SAkya SiMha Buddha should not prompt one to think that he was agains Buddhist philosophy. He undertook a big effort to refute SAkya SiMha Buddha’s philosophies of VijJAnatma-vad and Bahatma-vad with use of proper logic and arguments, however his venture into refuting the philosophy of SUnya-vAda (annihilation of the self) did not seem to acquire the same magnitude. Sri SaNkarAcarya’s reverence for the Buddha and his SUnya-vAda philosophy was substantial, and was nurtured internally.

Sri SaNkarAcarya took Buddhist philosophy, which contradicts the Vedas, and giving it the stamp of Vedic authority, extensively propagated in this world.



Atanu Banerjee
(member)
09/24/06 11:09 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Namaskar Anadi,

You have a-priori decided that whatever you decide to show from Puranas are true -- though you have failed to provide a single shruti proof.

How do I know that these puranic things that you cite are not instruments of delusion? I assert that you are deluded by having shut your eyes and intellect tight. Can you disprove it?


All Vedanta verses as below are useless as per you. Only bheda vakyas are proof enough. You forget that for a jiva in ignorance Bheda vakyasa apply. When ignorance is removed Abheda vakyas apply. And knowledge in mode of ignorance is also ignorance.


'In the beginning, my dear, there was that only which is, one only without a second' (Kh. Up. VI, 2, 1); 'Bliss is Brahman' (Taitt. Up. III, 6, 1); 'All this is that Self' (Bri. Up. IV, 5, 7); 'There is here no diversity whatever' (Bri. Up. IV, 4, 19); 'From death to death goes he who sees any difference here' (Ka. Up. II, 4, 10); 'For where there is duality as it were, there one sees the other'; 'but where the Self has become all of him, by what means, and whom, should he see? by what means, and whom, should he know?' (Bri. Up. IV, 5, 15); 'the effect is a name merely which has its origin in speech; the truth is that (the thing made of clay) is clay merely' (Kh. Up. VI, 1, 4); ‘for if he makes but the smallest distinction in it there is fear for him' (Taitt. Up. II, 7)


The following passages are from the Vishnu-purâna:

In which all difference vanishes, which is pure Being, which is not the object of words, which is known by the Self only--that knowledge is called Brahman' (VI, 7, 53); .--'Of that Self, although it exists in one's own and in other bodies, the knowledge is of one kind, and that is Reality; those who maintain duality hold a false view' (II, 14, 31); 'As owing to the difference of the holes of the flute the air equally passing through them all is called by the names of the different notes of the musical scale; so it is with the universal Self' (II, 14, 32); 'He is I; he is thou; he is all: this Universe is his form. Abandon the error of difference. The king being thus instructed, abandoned the view of difference, having gained an intuition of Reality' (II, 16, 24). 'When that view which gives rise to difference is absolutely destroyed, who then will make the untrue distinction between the individual Self and Brahman?' (VI, 7, 94).


'He knows Brahman, he becomes Brahman only' (Mu. Up. III, 2, 9); 'Knowing him only a man passes over death; there is no other path to go' (Svet. Up. III, 8).


All Abheda vakyas are ignored by you with one consideration only: to prove that your diety is supreme, which can only be among many. Whereas the truth has been declared to be paratpara, param parastad.

Mandukya Upanishad

yatra supto na kaJNchana kaamaM kaamayate na kaJNchana svapnaM pashyati tat.h
sushhuptam.h . sushhuptasthaana ekiibhuutaH praGYaanaghana evaanandamayo
hyaanandabhuk.h cheto mukhaH praaGYastR^itiiyaH paadaH .. 5..

eshha sarveshvaraH eshha sarvaGYa eshho.antaryaamyeshha yoniH sarvasya
prabhavaapyayau hi bhuutaanaam.h .. 6..

naantaHpraGYaM na bahishhpraGYaM nobhayataHpraGYaM na praGYAnaghanaMna praGYaM naapraGYam.h | adR^ishhTamavyavahaaryamagraahyamalakshaNaM
achintyamavyapadeshyamekaatmapratyayasaaraM prapaJNchopashamaM shaantaM shivamadvaitaM chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa viGYeyaH .. 7..



One must know that Pragnya the third pada is definable as Sarvesvara -- the Supreme. Whereas, the Fourth is indescribable. And the fourth is the Self.



And you will also note that achintya is in respect of definition of Turiya, which itself is indescribale but achintya is never in respect of the absolute need to know the Turiya, which can only be known in identity with it (when individual self dissolves as in deep sleep but with full consciousness).


---- The Fourth is thought of as that which is not conscious of the internal world, nor conscious of the external world, nor conscious of both the worlds, nor dense with consciousness, nor simple consciousness, nor unconsciousness, which is unseen, actionless, incomprehensible, uninferable, unthinkable, indescribable, whose proof consists in the identity of the Self (in all states), in which all phenomena come to a cessation, and which is unchanging, auspicious, and non-dual. That is the Self; that is to be known.


Your need to establish a name as the supreme is the cause of these difficulties.Veda states "That is ONE but sages give it various names". But you start by deciding the name for That.

Scriptures unequivocally state that the Self is ONE and ALL. The Self is Brahman. Find out within yourself its name. Find out what name you can give to your own self and whether it has a form or not?

You will realise what is delusion and what is not delusion. The Self is not in books and Puranas. Self is only indicated in Vedas but it is within you.

Anyway, I do not wish to further discuss the matter since you have a-priori settled that Puranas are shrutis. I have written these for anyone else who may wish to read. One cannot debate with someone who decides apriori what is correct based on some interpretation of Puranic statements and then ignore inconvenient verses from the same or other Puranas (by saying that they are tamasic or something).


Regards



Atanu Banerjee
(member)
09/24/06 11:25 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


Padma Purana 25.7:

mayavadam asacchastram pracchannam bauddhamuchyate
maya iva vihitam devi kalau brahmana murttina








Ha Ha. Do not say that this was written before Shankara or Buddha by taking Vyasadeva's omniscience as support.

Making Parameshwar talk like that is foolish enough. This itself is delusion.

And then what about these verses from Vishnu Purana?

In which all difference vanishes, which is pure Being, which is not the object of words, which is known by the Self only--that knowledge is called Brahman' (VI, 7, 53); .--'Of that Self, although it exists in one's own and in other bodies, the knowledge is of one kind, and that is Reality; those who maintain duality hold a false view' (II, 14, 31);



I also fail to understand why on a thread which purports to prove advaita as delusion, a large part is devoted to proving Vishnu's supremacy? Are these two issues somehow linked?

Bye


seva
(veteran)
09/27/06 04:19 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Just a brief comment.

It is wrong to associate the entire Advaita concept with Samkara alone. Advaita had been there since Badrayana (or before him). Moreover, even before Samkara, a considerable work on it was done by Gaudapada.

Samkara seems to have used Advaita to explain the reality (comprising God, soul and the material world) in terms of God alone (by using the concept of Maya), which contrasted from the Buddhist approach (somewhat similar and perhaps based on the Samkhya) of looking at things only in terms of soul and the material world.


anAdi
(member)
09/27/06 06:05 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu,
dandavat,

You said:

Even Purana evidence you are talking about does not say specifically that Buddha came to delude. These are interpretations as per your own preference. So, some say that Shankara deluded and some say Buddha deluded.

In my opinion, and the opinion of my revered gurudeva and parampara, they both did it.
But first I want you to present some facts about a common misunderstanding regarding the true initiator of Buddhism, which some think that it would be Lord Buddha.

This delusion started with buddhism, and was by the grace of Sankar-acarya changed, by reinstating the Vedic literature as the authentic evidence regarding the Absolute Truth, and driving buddhism out of Bharata (India).

It may be observed that Srila Veda Vyasa makes references about maya-vadism in connection to buddhism. The idea is that the mayavadism is but Buddhism, covered by Vedic terminology.
What is the evidence?
Some think that according to the statements of the puranas one cannot say certainly if they refer to Buddha or to Sri Shakar-acarya. But as we will see it is most certain that the puranas refer to Shankar-acarya.

Sri Sankar-acarya, in his commentary to Brahma-Sutra,
“sarvathA api anAdarIya ayam sugata-samayaH zreyaskAmaiH iti abiprAyaH”

when he refers to Gautama Buddha, uses the word sugatena, which is part of misleading of atheists, in thinking they accept God, which they really don’t.
Sugata is another name for Vishnu avatara Buddha, and according to his commentary he equals Sakya Simha Bhuddha with the Vishnu avatara.
Why?
In the Buddhist writing Amarakosha, written by the famous Amara Simha, who lived about 150 years before Shankar-acarya, the following verses about Buddha are found:

sarvajJaH sugato buddho dharmarAjas tathAgataH
samanta bhadro bhagavAn mArajil lokjij jinaH
SaDabhijJo dazabalo’ dvayavAdI vinAyakaH
mnunindrA zrIghananH zAstA muniH


All knowing, transcendental Buddha, king of righteousness, He who has come, beneficent, all encompassing Lord, conqueror of the God of Love Mara, conqueror of worlds, He who controls his senses , protector of the six enemies, possessor of the ten powers, speaker of monism, foremost leader, lord of ascetics, embodiment of splendor and teacher of the ascetics.

The above verse contains eighteen names of Vishnu Avatara Buddha including the name Sugato, and the verse below contains the seven aliases of Sakya Simha Buddha without any mention of the name Sugato.

zAkyamunis tu yaH sa zAkyasiMhaH sarvArthasiddha zauddhodaniz ca saH gautamaz cArkabandhuz ca mAyAdevI sutaz ca saH


Teacher of the Sakyas, lion of the Sakyas , accomplisher of all goals, son of Suddhodana, of Gautama’s line, friend of the entrapped ones, the son of Maya-devi.

In his commentary to Amarakosha by the learned Raghunatha Cakravarti, he made a clear distinction between the verses. To the eighteen names of Vishnu avatar, Buddha, he writes the words “astadaz Buddha”, and on his commentary for the seven aleases of Sakya Simha he writes:
“ ete sapta Zakya banhzabatirneh Buddha muni bishete”, meaning “

the next seven names starting form Sakya-muni are aliases of Buddha-muni, who was born into the Sakya dynasty.”

The learned readers can refer to the Amaraksha published by the respected Mr. H.T. Colebrooke in 1807. On pages 2 and 3 of this book the name Buddha has been explained.
The “Marginal Note” for the first 18 names, states they are names of (the son of) Ajina or Buddha and the “Marginal Note” for the later seven names states they are aliases of Sakhya Simha Buddha.
A further footnote is added to clarify the second Buddha, the Buddha of the seven names, as “the founder of the religion named after him.”

Mr. Colebroke lists in his preface the names of the many commentaries he used as references.
Besides Raghunatha Cakravari’s commentaries he took reference from twenty-five others.

Sakhya Simha or Siddharta Buddha, received the name Gautama from his spiritual master Gautama Muni, who belonged to the Kapila dynasty. This is confirmed in the ancient Buddhist treatise “Sundarananda Carita”:

“guru gotrAd ataH kautsAste bhavanti sma gautamAH”


– meaning “O” Kautsa, because his teacher was Gautama, they became known form his family line”.

Besides the Amarakosha, highly favored by Sankar-acarya, there are other famous Buddhist texts like PrajJnA-PAramita Sutra, AStashastrika PrajJA-PAramitA Sutra, Sata-sahastrika PrajJA-paramaitA Sutra, Lalita Vistara, whose proper scrutiny reveals the existence of three categories of Buddha, namely:
- human Buddhas: like Gautama, who attain the enlightenment and become a Buddha
- bodhisattava buddhas: like Samanta Bhadraka, who were born enlightened
- Adi (original) Buddha - bhagavan

The Amarakosha stated that Lord Buddha, Vishnu’s avatara, is also known as Samanta Bhadra, whereas Gautama Buddha is a human being.

In Lalita Vistara, Ch. 21 page 17, it is described how Gautama Buddha meditated on the same spot as the predecessor Buddha:

ca dharaNImuNde pUrvabuddhAsanasthaH samartha dhanur gRhItvA zUnya nairAtmavANaiH klezaripuM nihatvA dRStijAlaN ca bhitvA ziva virajamzokAM prApsyate bodhim agryAM


The one seated on the hallowed earth on the previous Buddha’s birthplace, is on the path of voidism and renunciation . With his weapon, the powerful bow, he vanquishes the enemies of distress and illusion. Thus with wisdom he will attain the auspicious state of grieflessness and worldly detachment.

The ancient and original name of this place was Kikata, but after Guatma attained enlightenment here it came to be known as “Buddha (Bodhi) Gaya”.
Even to the present day, the rituals of worship to the deity of Buddha at Bodhi Gaya are conducted by a sannyasi of the Grii order belonging to the Sankar-acarya sect.
It is commonly accepted amongst these monks that Buddha-Gaya (Vishnu avatar) was a predecessor of Bautama Buddha, who came later to the original Buddha’s birthplace to practice meditation.

Lanka-avatara Sutra is a famous and authoritative Buddhist text. From the description of Buddha, which is found in this book it may be firmly concluded that he is not the more recent Sakya Simha or Gautama Buddha. In the beginning of this book we find RAvana, King of Lanka, praying first to the original Vishnu avatar, Buddha and then to the successive future Buddha.

laNkAvatAra sUtraM vai pUrva Buddha anuvarNitaM smarAmi pUrvakaiH buddhair jina-putra puraskRtaiH sUtram etan nigadyante bhagavAn api bhASatAM bhaviSyatyanAgate kAle buddhA Buddha-sutAs ca ye


Ravana, the king of Lanka, at first recited in the Totaka metre then sang the following –
“I invoke in my memory the aphorisms known as “Lanaka-avatara-sutra, compiled and propagated by the previous Buddha, the son of Jina, and presented in this book.
Lord Buddha and his sons, who will appear in the future, as well as Bhagavan (Ravana was a worshiper of Siva), will continue to instruct all form this book.”

Here Ravana speaks of Bhagavan Buddha, the son of Jina, a Vishnu avatara.
The fact that Buddha, the son of Jina is a Vishnu avatara is confirmed in Bhagavata Purana 1.3.24

tataH kalau sampravRtte sammohAya sura-dviSAm buddho nAmnAJjana-sutaH kIkaTeSu bhaviSyati


Then in the beginning of Kali-yuga, the Lord will appear as Buddha, the son of AJjana, in the province of Gaya, just for the purpose of deluding those who are envious of the faithful.

Sridhara Svami writes in his authoritative commentary to this verse:

Buddha avartAramAha tata iti aJjanasya sutaH ajina suta it pAThe ajino’pi sa eva kIkaTeSu madhe gayA-pradeze


The words “tataH kalau…” describe Vishnu’s avatara Buddha as the son of AJjana. Ajina in the word “ajina sutaH” actually neans “AJjana” Kikata is the name of the district of Gaya.

The monists, either by mistake or some other reason, regard Sridhara Svami as belonging to their sect and persuasion, although only Vaishnavas write commentaries to Bhagavata Purana.

Lord Buddha also finds repeated mention in the revealed scripture, like ViSNu PurANa, VAyu PurANa and Skanda PurANa.
The Buddha mentioned in DevI BhAgavat, a more recent text and in Sakti Pramoda refers to SAkya SiMha not to Vishnu Avatara.

Sakya Simha was born in Kapilavastu, and Lord Buddha appeared in Kikata, which is now famous as Bodhi-Gaya.

Sakya Simha or Gautama Buddha’s father was known as Suddhodana, while his mother was Maya-devi, this is all accepted historical fact.
He cannot be mistaken with Lord Buddha, which is described as the son of AJjana in the vedic literature , and in the Buddhist literature as the son of Jina




Parnah Dhanika
(member)
09/28/06 06:56 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

http://encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/40_descriptions_of.htm

http://encyclopediaofauthentichinduism.org/articles/39_how_did.htm


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
09/29/06 10:53 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada


No.

Those who have coined the word Maya-Vada are trying to find the scapegoats. Why all inconsistencies occur in certain puranas only?


Parnah Dhanika
(member)
09/30/06 12:40 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

>The mayavadism or impersonalism was an alien concept in Vedic ages and therefore does not
find a place as an authentic philosophy int the Vedic literature<
Not possible for nasadiya sukta and yoga-vasishta explain otherwise.

>As one can see, these mantras name Vishnu as the preserver of the world, and indicate that He traversed the whole world, which is collected as the dust in His footprints. All attributes of a Supreme Deity.<
Not really, vishnu is one of the 12 adityas in vedas. One name always implies either of two people in vedas - a devata, or That.

>>Buddha, the son of Jina, and presented in this book.<<
not possible; for jina means vardhamana mahaveera.


anAdi
(member)
10/02/06 11:39 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

You have a-priori decided that whatever you decide to show from Puranas are true -- though you have failed to provide a single shruti proof.

How do I know that these puranic things that you cite are not instruments of delusion? I assert that you are deluded by having shut your eyes and intellect tight. Can you disprove it?



Dear Atanu,
dandavat,
it is not my decision that what the Puranas say is true, it is Vyasa-deva the warrant for it.
Understanding that these puranic verses are irrefutable, many adherents of the Sankara-acarya school postulate (lacking any evidence, except that such verses are not present in the shruti, which in itself is not an evidence) that they must be interpolations made by the vaishnavas, who falsified the scriptures, but a vaishnava will never do so, and there is no available data to justify the allegations that those puranic verses were vaishnava interpolations.

Sri Kishori Cattopadhyaya, a follower of Buddhism writes in his book Prajna-Paramita Sutra pg. 177:
“ The concept of Sunya-vada, (voidism) in Buddhism and the concept of “impersonal Brahman” of Hinduism (Sankara-acarya) mean the same, but sound different.”
Furthermore, his book goes on to unquestionably prove that Sankara-acarya’s idea and precepts correspond to the Buddhist’s own views.

Philosophers from the Sankhya school like Vijnana Bhiksu, and of the Patanjali’s mechanic yoga school, and acaryas like Ramanuja, Madhava, Jiva Gosvami, VAllabacarya and even Buddhists scholars consider Sankara-acarya as a pre-eminent supporter and upholder of the Buddhist school of thought.
The percepts of non-dualism or monism (advaita-vada) prior to the appearance of the original (adi) Lord Buddha are quite different from Sankara-acarya and Gautama Buddha’s brand of advaita-vada.
The Buddhism says that the world came out of nothing.
This would make the world an illusion, or false, and in the end is nothing. Thus the substance of all existence is shunya, nothingness.

Sankara-acarya, following in the footsteps of Sakhya Simha Buddha postulated the theory that the ultimate cause of the world is the oneness without qualities, without existence, described as avidya or nescience, which is
- neither eternal or real (sat)
- nor temporary or false (asat), and
- neither both.

This nescience is described by Sankaracarya in such terms in Ajnana Bodhini:

Bho bhagavAn yad braham mAtra siddhaM tat kiM satyam are yathA indrajAlaM pazyati janaH vyAghra jalataDAdi asatyatayApratibhAt kim indrajAla bhrame nivRtte sati sarvam mithyA iti jAnAti idam tu sarvezAm anubhava diddham


O Lord! That which can be realized in a world of illusion, can be true?
(vedic statements say it is true, under the condition that one is liberated – Bhagavata Purana 2.11).
How can the optical illusion of a tiger or a waterfall on stage, conjured by a magician be perceived as unreal by the audience? After the magic show everyone realizes that the optical illusions were actual illusions. This is easily comprehensible to all.

In the Atma-Pancaka, Verse 6, Sankara-acarya says:

AbhAtIdaM vizvam Atmany asatyam satya jJAna Ananda rUpeNa vimoAt nidrA mohAt svapnavat tan na satyaM zuddaH pUrno nitya ekaHzivo’ham


The world is not existent, as a dream it is false. The world only seems real, perceived from a dream like state, while we are asleep, in reality it does not exist.
Buddha said sometimes, the world is an impression – samskara, and
Sankaracarya said the world is like a dream,
and both make these analogies to substantiate the postulate of an imaginary, inexistent world.
Although Sankaracarya, in his commentary to Vedanta, (which nowadays is falsely presented as the Vedic Vedanta in the world) has torn apart the concept of samskara, on closer scrutiny it becomes transparent that his own concept of a dreamlike, inexistent, world and the samskara speculation of Buddha are the same – they differ only in nomenclature.
Sri Sankaracarya when explaining the meaning of avidya (nescience) which according to him is the cause of the world, speaks of an inexpressible reality which is beyond existence and non-existence – when this is compared to Buddha’s concept of nothingness, no difference can be perceived.
For Gautama Buddha shunya (the void) is the reality, that which has eternal existence, and “spiritual” realization means knowledge of … nothing - shunya.
In Prajna-Paramita Sutra, sutra16 it is stated:

sudurbodhAsi mAyaiva dRzyase na ca dRzyase


You (shunya) are very difficult to understand; like an illusion you are manifest and unmanifest.
In Sutra 2 of this same book it is stated:

AkAzamiva nirlepAM nizprapaNcAM nirakzarAm
yastaM pazyati bhAvena sa pazyati tathAgatam


One who perceives you as sky or ether – the void which is detached, non material and formless is tathagata, has realised void.

In the second round of the Buddhist text Astasahasrika-prajna-paramita it is written:

sarva dharma api devaputra mAyopamAh svapnopamAH
pratyag buddho`pi mAyopamaH svapnopamaH
pratyag buddhatvam api mAyopamaM svapnopamam
samyak sambuddho`pi mAyopamaH svapnopamaH
samyak sambuddhatvam api mAyopamaM svapnopamam


O son of God! All religions are illusions, like a dream. Every Buddha, even all the Bodhisattvas (Buddhas) and all religious teachings are illusions, like a dream.
Again in the book Sarvadarshana-sangraha, the philosopher Sayana Madhava has expounded Buddhist tenets in this manner in Doctrine 15:

mAdhyamikAs tAavad uttama prajJAittham acIkathan bhikSupAda prasAraNa-nyAyena kSaNa-bhaNgAdyabhidhAna mukhena sthAyitva anukUla vedanIyatva anugarva sarva-satyatva bhrama vyArarttanena sarva-zUnyatAyAm eva paryavasAnam atas tattvaM sad asad ubhayAnubhayAtmaka catuzkoTi


The most intelligent of madhyamikas gave the analogy of a beggar who stretches his legs in discomfort. Thus, introducing the theory of the momentary non-existent nature of every experience, even of pain, once it is accepted as favourable. This defeats the hypothesis that everything exists. With this accomplished, all theories culminate in voidism. This factually means that beyond the three parameters – sat, asat and neither of these two,
lies the state of void.

In Lalita VistAra, chapter 21, this statement about Sakya Simha Buddha is found:

Samartha dhanur gRhItvA zUnya-nairAtmavAdine klezAripun nihatvA


Sakya Simha Buddha was able to nullify the sufferings of material existence with the bow of shunya and nairatmavad (voidism and inexistence of ego).
The nihilist concept of emancipation in void is like merging into the expanse of the sky – formless, unsubstantial. Furthermore, matter is the metamorphosis of shunya, void – the original cause.

In the Prajna-paramita Sutra it is stated: “As soon as the qualities and characteristics of a mango are separated from the mango it reaches void.”
Sri Sankaracarya`s concept of a non-qualitative brahman is merely another name for shunya.
Buddha says: “That, which does neither posses action nor qualities is shunyam.”
And Shankaracarya says the same using instead of shuya, the word brAhman, which in this way, regrettably looses its vedic significance.

Let`s see the Shankaracarya doctrine of Brahman.
Sankaracarya said, that which has no form, no appearance, is the reality, using the vedic term brAhman. In his book AparokSAnubhUti, verse 94, he wrote:

upAdAnaM prapaJcasya mRdbhANdasyeva dRzyate
ajJAnam ca iti vedAntAstan naSTaiva kA vizvatA


“Just as earth, water etc. Are the ingredients required for the making of an earthen pot, similarly the aJjana, or nescience, is the ingredient forming the world. It is questioned in the Upanishads that once this nescience is removed what remains of mater, or the world?”

And what is this nescience, which is the ingredient, or the cause of the world?
The answer is given already in the verse 46 of the same AparokSAnubhUti:

brahmaNaH sarva-bhUtani jAyante paramAtamnaH
tasmAd etAni brahmaiva bhavantIty avadhArayet


Brahman is both the cause and the source of the liVing entities. Therefore all material dualities are also Brahman themselves – one should think in this way.”

As one can see in Sankaracarya`S concept OF Brahman is avidya or ajnanam – nescience; as the ingredient of all material dualities.

Also there is no concept of spiritual world Vaikuntha, or spiritual souls, which in his conception may be interpreted as being made of material gunas, which is false; THE SOULS ARE SPIRITUAL, not material.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/02/06 11:02 PM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Shri Anadi Namaskar,


The voluminous writings of yours are truly of no use to me.

The truth is ONE, indescribale, beyond intellect and Vak, neither consciousness nor unconsciousness.This truth is to be known in unity with IT alone (and in no other way). The truth is indivisible, cannot be cut, resides in everyone as enjoyer/permitter, is param atma/param purusha/mahesvara, it appears to be divided in many bodies but is One. (all from Gita).Aditi is All -- gods, earth, heaven etc. Soma you will be All as you have enetered Aditi. Soma you are auspicious energy. Soma you are the adiyagna. Soma is the father of earth, heaven, Surya, Indra and Vishnu. (all from Rig Veda). Who is Soma?


I really do not need to waste my and your time. But I just want to point out that the truth is not different for Vaisnavas, Advaitins, Bhauddhas, Christians, Moslems. But except advaitins and bauddhas others are a bit distant from this knowledge.


When you cite those things from Puranas ascribed to Shiva speaking to His consort, I cannot help but smile. What is Mayavada? The concept that upholds that there is no Maya is Mayavada?

Or the concept which tries to re-inforce that 'million and millions of eternal discrete particulate beings' as the truth is Mayavada?


No doubt, both concepts are taught in the world by Parameshwara Shiva as grace --- to free the bonded mind from the trappings of samsara. How true. The knowledge is all there. It is how one perceives that. Da Da Da.



On this Vijaya Dashami day let the following verses be intangible gift for all readers of this post:

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”


YV iv. 4. 9.


(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma;
the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing;
Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma;
Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought;
Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place;
delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival;Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar;
Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar;
Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place;
Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet;
Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed;the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers;life when taken; the river when going to the final bath;the ocean when gone; the water when dipped;the heaven when arrived at completion.




Anadi, please come out of the mind set of comparing incomparable ONE VISHNU with apparent others. That itself will free you from Maya Vada.

The being that says "I" in you, is he formless or is he with a form? Is he born? If yes, then in what form?


Note: Anadi, by gods grace I do not have time for blow for blow (verse by verse) argument. Thus I have given a general post, indicating that your basic premise of what is Maya vada is shaky.

Advaita has no place for Maya. By name itself it refers to the truth as Without a Second.




Om Namah Shivayya


anAdi
(member)
10/04/06 11:04 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu
dandavat

you quoted:
'In the beginning, my dear, there was that only which is, one only without a second' (Kh. Up. VI, 2, 1)


Yes, you are perfectly right, dear Atanu
According to your … consciousness this is Brahman.
According my covered consciousness this is bhagavan Sri Krishna.

According to Bhagavata Purana The statement presented from Kh. Up. VI, 2, 1
does uphold neihter maya-vada, nor advaita-vada… although
it depends on the acceptance of a particular type or realization, as described in Bhagavata Purana 1.2.11, known also as Srimad Bhagavatam, where the enlightenment or the spiritual realization is described as being of three basic types:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas / tattvaM yaj jJAnam advayam
brahmeti paramAtmeti / bhagavAn iti zabdyate


“It is said, that the learned souls know
through the transcendental sound that
the Absolute Truth is not two, (but) it is known as
Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn.“

It is quite amazing that the One Absolute Truth is not two, but three: Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn. The meaning is that the Lord reveals Himself to everyone according one’s attained consciousness, in one of these three forms, as bhagavan Sri Krishna states it in Bhagavad-gita 4.11:

"Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham ".

According one's way of worshiping Me, I reveal Myself.

Or in other words, everyone gets that what he/she deserves.

Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn are qualitatively one and the same, namely they are divyam – spiritual, not material, and the most important characteristic of that which is spiritual, is that it is eternal. That means that Bhagavan is eternal, The Absolute Truth,. not a temporary (material) manifestation, or maya (illusory) as the maya-vada upholders pretend about the Supreme Personality - Bhagavan.
The same substance is realized as impersonal Brahman by the students of the Upanishads, as localized ParamAtmA by the Hiranyagarbhas or the non bhakti yogis, and as BhagavAn by bhakti yogis (the devotees).
BhagavAn, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth.
ParamAtmA is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and
impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god.

BrahmAnanda is the name given to the joy found in the transcendentalist’s realization of universal spiritual identity. This pleasure is so highly lauded by its proponents that it is said to make all worldly pleasure, even that of being an emperor or universal creator like BrahmA, appear completely insignificant.
Yet this brahmAnanda itself becomes an object of scorn for one who has attained the fortune of getting even the slightest scent of divine love for The All Attractive – Krishna premA.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/06/06 04:23 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Dear Atanu
dandavat


“It is said, that the learned souls know
through the transcendental sound that
the Absolute Truth is not two, (but) it is known as
Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn.“

----
Or in other words, everyone gets that what he/she deserves.

-----
BhagavAn, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth.
ParamAtmA is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and
impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god.

---
Yet this brahmAnanda itself becomes an object of scorn for one who has attained the fortune of getting even the slightest scent of divine love for The All Attractive – Krishna premA.






It went on very nice till the point:

“It is said, that the learned souls know
through the transcendental sound that
the Absolute Truth is not two, (but) it is known as
Brahman, ParamAtmA and BhagavAn.“


Then the usual HK bombast started assertions statements without proofs.

In Yajur veda Rudra is prayed as Bhagawan, and Param Briksha, and the saguna that comes from the Param Briksha sometimes with arrows to hurt and often with grace to liberate. The shivoadvaitam Turiya, beyond any definition and name is the goal, as Narada Bhakti Sutras mentions . Bhakti is definitely a big part to know the Turiya. It gives motivation. But at the same time those whose inteelect have ego shutters do not attain that.

Else Lord Krishna would not have said: Submit to me whole heartedly and I will give you Jnana.

He also would not have said: The akshara Parama Brahma, neither a being nor a non-being, must be known.

So, why should I forget the Vedas and take a kala constrained view? And create hatred by creating divisive feelings. Vedas are eternal. Puranas and Smriti are kala constrained. The physical representations are to take the initiiates in, since such have barely given up the idea that "My father is the greatest".


And regarding your unfounded assertion that Brahma ananda becomes an object of scorn when love of all attractive is found. Less I say is better. With such a statement the Brama Jnanis are insulted. I would say that it is very typical bombast without any substance.

Self is Brahman. One who finds Lord in every being and every being in Lord has found Lord in his Self, which is then seen as the pure consciousness constituting the Universe and its root. And Atma remains always with one. Can you be one moment without the atma? On the other hand, a god vision is not permanent.

What appears today is bound to disappear. The Atma being your own never comes and goes. It is always there.


Actually Lord Krishna himself has said: Arjuna I'm the Self.




Om NamaH Shivayya




anAdi
(member)
10/17/06 12:17 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu,
dadavat pranama

From this statement of yours:
Then the usual HK bombast started assertions statements without proofs.

I understand you are a little prejudiced stamping as HK bombast statements of mine, like the one below,
BhagavAn, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth.


But we find evidence in the Vedas, Upanishads, and PurANas for this. For example, the Rig Veda (1.12.164.31) states:

apazyaM gopAm aNipadyamA namA
ca parA ca pathibhiz carantam sa-sadhRIcIH
sa viSucIr vasAna AvarIvartti-bhuvaneSv antaH


I saw a boy who appeared in the dynasty of cowherds. He is infallible and is never annihilated. He wanders on various paths, sometimes near and sometimes very far. Sometimes He is beautifully adorned with varieties of garments, and sometimes He wears cloth of only one color. In this way, He repeatedly exhibits His manifest and unmanifest pastimes.

In addition, in the ChAndogya Upanishad (8.13.1) it is stated:

zyAmAc chabalaM prapadye zabalac chyAmam prapadye


By rendering sevA to syama, one attains His transcendental abode, which is full of spiritual bliss and astonishing, variegated lilAs; (and within that cit-jagat, one attains the eternal shelter of syama).

Another understanding of this zloka is that the word syama refers to KRSNa, and the word syama or KRSNa, meaning black, describes the nirguNa-para-tattva, which like black, is colorless,
while the word zabala, meaning gaura (the complexion of Sri Krishna Caitanya), refers to one who is endowed with variegated colors.
In other words, when para-tattva, is endowed with all transcendental qualities, He is called gaura.
The secret meaning of this mantra is that one attains Gaura by performing
kRSNa-bhajana, and one attains KRSNa by performing gaura -bhajana.

We read in Srimad-BhAgavatam (1.3.28):

ete cAMzAh kalAH puMsaH kRSNas tu bhagavAn svayam


All these (before enumerated) avatAras are all portions (aMzas) or plenary portions (kalA) - of the Supreme -, but KRSNa is that original BhagavAn Himself.

In the GopAla-tApani Upanishad (Pürva 2.8) it is stated:

eko vazI sarva-gaH kRSNa IDyaH
eko ’pi san bahudhA yo ’vabhAti


Sri KRSNa is the all-pervasive, non-dual para-brahma who controls everything. He is the only worshipable object for all the devatAs, for mankind, and for all other life-forms.
Although He is one, through His acintya-zakti He manifests many forms and performs many varieties of lilAs.

How can KRSNa be all-pervading if He has a medium-sized, human-like form? If we accept that He has form, it means He can only stay in one place at a time, and that gives rise to so many philosophical discrepancies.
The first would be that He cannot be the all-pervading tattva if He has a form and body.
Secondly, if He would have a body, He will be limited by the material modes of nature,so how can He be independent and have limitless and absolute authority? How can this be reconciled?


One is thinking like this because one is bound by the qualities of mAyA. As long as the intelligence
remains bound by material qualities, it cannot touch shuddha-sattva
.
If such conditioned intelligence attempts to exceed its own limitations trying to understand shuddha-tattva, it superimposes mAyika forms and qualities on shuddha-tattva, and thus conceives of a
material form of Transcendence
– which is the core of maya-vada, namely after some time, the intellect rejects this form as being temporary, mutable, and subject to the material modes, and then it imagines the nirvizeSa-brahma.
That is why one cannot gain an understanding of the Supreme Absolute Truth through the intelligence.

Whatever limitations one is inferring about the transcendental, medium-sized form are completely unfounded. Formlessness, immutability, and inactivity simply comprise the material conception of what is opposite to our conception of material qualities, so they are themselves a type of material quality.


anAdi
(member)
10/17/06 12:27 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

The NArada-paNcarAtra describes the Lord’s extreme attractiveness to the mind, and this description is replete with all siddhänta:

nirdoSa-guNa-vigraha Atma-tantro / nizcetanAtmaka-zarIra-guNaiz ca hInaH
Ananda-mAtra-kara-pAda-mukhodarAdiH / sarvatra ca svagata-bheda-vivarjitAtmA


Sri Krsna’s transcendental body is composed of eternity, consciousness and bliss,
without even a trace of material qualities. He is not subject to material time or space.
On the contrary, He exists fully at all places and in all times simultaneously.
His form and existence are the embodiment of absolute nonduality (advaya-jJAna-svarUpa-vastu).

Direction (space) is an unlimited entity in the material world.
By material estimation, only a formless object can be unlimited or all-pervading; an entity with a medium-sized form cannot. However, this conception only applies in the material world.
In the spiritual world, all objects and their intrinsic natures and attributes are unlimited, so Sri Krsna’s medium-sized form is also allpervading.

Sri Krsna’s vraja-dhAma is none other than the Brahma-pura which is mentioned within the ChAndogya UpaniSad. This vraja-dhAma is a completely transcendental reality, and is comprised of all types of transcendental variety. Everything in that place—the earth, water, rivers, mountains, trees, creepers, animals, birds, sky, sun, moon and constellations—is transcendental and is devoid of material flaws or shortcomings. Conscious pleasure is present always and everywhere, in its fullest form.

But when, by the mercy of vaishnava saints and sAdhus, spiritual consciousness becomes cleaned, one will then perceive the bauma-vraja as the spiritual dhAma, and then only will one achieve the perfection of vraja-vAsa (residence in Vraja).


When, where and how Sri Krsna’s spiritual vigraha, dhAma, and lila are manifested within material limitations, since Sri Radha-KRSNa’s vigraha and bodily complexion, and Their lilas, associates, houses, pastime-groves, forests, secondary forests and all the objects in the spiritual world are transcendental?

Sri Krsna possesses all potencies, so even that which appears to be impossible is actually possible for Him. He is the all-potent Personality (sarva-zaktiman puruSa), the fully independent supreme controller who is completely autocratic and imbued with lila. Simply by His desire, He can appear in this material world in His self-same spiritual form,along with His spiritual abode.

However, materialistic people tend to think that Sri KRSNa’s own transcendental abode that is manifest here is simply a part of this material universe, and they perceive His vraja-lila to be just
like ordinary mayika activities
. Why is this? Why can’t worldly people see KRSNa’s self-manifest, spiritual form as sac-cid-Ananda when He mercifully appears in this world of birth and death?

One of Sri KRSNa’s unlimited transcendental qualities is His bhakta-vAtsalya (affection for His bhaktas). Because of this quality, His heart melts, and through His hlAdini-zakti, He bestows upon
His bhaktas a type of spiritual potency that enables them to have direct darzana of His self-manifest form and His transcendental pastimes. However, the non-devotees’ eyes, ears, and other senses made up of mAyA, can see no difference between BhagavAn’s spiritual pastimes and the mundane events in human history.

Even so, these lilas (pastimes) have the power to bestow a type of spiritual merit (sukRti), and as this sukRti gradually accumulates, one is nourished so that one develops one-pointed shraddha towards kRSNa-bhakti.
That is why BhagavAn’s descent certainly benefits all the jivas in the universe, because jivas who possess such shraddha and perform ananya-bhakti-sAdhana (unalloyed devotional service) will one day be able to see BhagavAn’s transcendental form and lila.

Sri KRSNa BhagavAn is eternally manifest in two features, one of aishvarya (opulence and majesty) and the other of mAdhurya (sweetness).
The feature of aiSHvarya is NArAyaNa, who is the master of the spiritual sky, VaikuNTha, and the origin of MahA-ViSNu.
Sri KRSNa is the complete embodiment of the mAdhurya feature.
This Sri KRSNa is the utmost limit of complete sweetness; indeed, His sweetness is so great that its rays completely cover His aishvarya.
From the perspective of siddhAnta or tattva there is no difference between NArAyaNa and KRSNa. However, when we consider the degree of rasa to be tasted in the spiritual world, KRSNa is not only
the foundation all rasa, but He Himself, being the very form of rasa, is also parama upAdeya-tattva, the supremely pleasing Being.


anAdi
(member)
10/17/06 02:31 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Aatanu,

dandavat pranama,

you said: Else Lord Krishna would not have said: Submit to me whole heartedly and I will give you Jnana.

He also would not have said: The akshara Parama Brahma, neither a being nor a non-being, must be known.


Can you please provide the exact quotes for this afirmations, I would like that we analize them.

dandavat


anAdi
(member)
10/17/06 04:12 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

ParamAtmA is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and
impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god.

The brAhman efulgence is the radiance coming from the Supreme Lord as stated in the Sri Isopanishad, mantra 15:

hiranNmayena pAtreNa / satyasyApihitaM mukham
tat tvaM pUSann apAvRNu / satya-dharmAya dRSTaye


O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

In the Vedas, the Absolute Truth is also called Shaktiman, the possessor of the energies, or the Energetic, and He is the only object (vastu) of existence, whose sva-bhava, or intrinsic nature, is to have energy (shakti).

ZaNkarAcArya contradicts the Vedas stating that brahman has no zakti (lupta-zakti).

In Vedanta (the conclusion of the Vedas) written by the one who also compiled the Vedas, namely Vyasa Rishi (not the impersonal commentary of Shankar-acarya to Vedanta of Vyasa Rishi, which nowadays is falsely called vedanta) it is said that Shakti (energy) and Shaktiman (the energetic) are one (zakti-zaktimator abheda).

BhagavAn Sri KRSNa has described the creation of the material world in Bhagavad-gItA (9.10):

mayAdhyakSeNa prakRtiH sUyate sa-carAcaram


Under My superintendence, My illusory energy creates the universe full of moving and non-moving beings.

Then it is said,
sa aikSata, “That ParamAtmA glanced.” (Aitareya Upanishad 1.1.1)
sa imAl lokAn asRjat, “That Paramätmä created the universe of moving and non-moving entities after glancing over His mAyA.” (Aitareya Upanishad 1.1.2)

And this paramAtmA is Krishna himself (namely one of His innumerable expansions, as He says it in Bhagavad-gita).

SvetAzvatara Upanizad (4.6) states, dvA suparNA sAyujA sakhAyA, “The soul (jiva) and the supersoul (ParamAtmA) are in the „heart” of the embodied soul, like two birds on the branch of a tree. One of these birds is Ishvara,who awards the results of fruitive activity, and the other bird is the jiva, who is tasting the fruits of his actions.”


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/17/06 10:33 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Dear Aatanu,

dandavat pranama,

you said: Else Lord Krishna would not have said: Submit to me whole heartedly and I will give you Jnana.

He also would not have said: The akshara Parama Brahma, neither a being nor a non-being, must be known.


Can you please provide the exact quotes for this afirmations, I would like that we analize them.

dandavat






Namaskar,

Please find them yourself.But please do not analize (sic) using a translation that matches with no other translation.


What is the thread by the way? What all you write have no relation to the topic. As for your your citations, all are meaningless. Narad Pancharatra (which you have quoted) states:

Shivo Harirhariha Shakshatchiva Eva Nirupitaha |

Shivadveshi Haridrohi Vishnum Nityam Bhajanapi ||

‘Shiva is Hari and Hari is none other than Shiva. An enemy of Shiva is an enemy of Hari, even though he may daily worship Vishnu.’



Asiya Vamiya Sukta, which you have quoted to show the word GOPA also states that Soma is the seed prolific -- the highest Brahman where the speech abides. And Gopa means leader of men. In Rudram (from Yajur Veda), Gopa is used for Rudra as below:

Shri Rudram 1.8


asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH |
utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH |
utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH ||
(shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8)

That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.)



Syama is mother Kali, who is also krishna.

Chandogya Upanishad also says that Devakiputra Krishnayya was taught purusha Vidya by Ghora angirasa.


All your posts are irrelevant, since you have your primary reference in Puranaas (and that too a select few only. Whatever you say applies to Shiva with a 100 times greater strength.

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH
na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .
tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM
praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..


6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT OF THE GODS AND THEIR GODHEAD, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS, WHO TOWERETH HIGH ABOVE ALL SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.


Om


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/17/06 10:40 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


nirdoSa-guNa-vigraha Atma-tantro / nizcetanAtmaka-zarIra-guNaiz ca hInaH
Ananda-mAtra-kara-pAda-mukhodarAdiH / sarvatra ca svagata-bheda-vivarjitAtmA

Sri Krsna’s transcendental body is composed of eternity, consciousness and bliss,
without even a trace of material qualities. He is not subject to material time or space.
On the contrary, He exists fully at all places and in all times simultaneously.
His form and existence are the embodiment of absolute nonduality (advaya-jJAna-svarUpa-vastu).







With respect to the topic in hand, the above citation of yours is enough.


svagata-bheda-vivarjitAtmA


Om Namah Shivayya





anAdi
(member)
10/23/06 06:04 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu,

dandavat pranama,

you said: Else Lord Krishna would not have said: Submit to me whole
heartedly and I will give you Jnana.

He also would not have said: The akshara Parama Brahma, neither a
being nor a non-being, must be known.


My request was:

Can you please provide the exact quotes for this afirmations, I would
like that we analize them.

your answer:

Please find them yourself. But please do not analize (sic) using a
translation that matches with no other translation.

Dear Atanu,

You made some statements without presenting the evidence for them.
When I asked you for evidence, you asked me that I should present
them.
This is not the way, one demonstrates his claims are true.


anAdi
(member)
10/23/06 06:33 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu,

dandavat pranama,

you said: Else Lord Krishna would not have said: Submit to me whole
heartedly and I will give you Jnana.


And bhagavan Sri Krishna says why does he give jnana:

tesSAM satata-yuktAnAM / bhajatAM prIti-pUrvakam
dadAmi buddhi-yogaM taM / yena mAm upayAnti te


To those (tesSAM) who are constantly engaged (satata-yuktAnAM) to
worship Me and sing My glories (bhajatAM ) serving Me with love and
affection (prIti-pUrvakam), I give (dadAmi) the intelligence to connect
– make a relation (buddhi-yogam by which (yena) they (te) will come
(upayAnti) to Me (mAm)
.

As you can see from this verse Sri Krishna says that to the bhaktas,
the devotees who do bhajana to Him with priti, He will give the
intelligence (buddhi) to have a personal eternal relation to Him,
and get into His eternal lila, according their way of worship.

Our gaudiya vaishnava acaryas are the living example of this sloka.
Please see the topic Gaudiya Vaishanva Saints



anAdi
(member)
10/23/06 06:40 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

In Rudram (from Yajur Veda), Gopa is used for Rudra as below:


Shri Rudram 1.8

asau yo .avasarpati nIlagrIvo vilohitaH |
utainaM gopA adR^ishannadR^ishannudahAryaH |
utainaM vishvA bhUtAni sa dR^iShTo mR^iDayAti naH ||
(shrI Rudram: anuvAka 1, Rik 8)



That Rudra in the sun's orb who is blue-throated and distinctly reddish, appears to go downward at the time of sunset. The cowherds see Him, the women who carry water see Him. Even all beings in the world see Him. May Rudra, who is seen thus by all, make us happy. (Thus we pray.)




Dear Atanu,
Dandavat pranam,

In the sloka presented by you, it is not said that Siva is a gopa as you pretend, but that He is seen by gopas, by women and all beings of the world.

When the Vedas speak of an imperishable gopa, they don't refer to Shiva, than there is no one of His lila where He acts like a gopa. Moreover Bhagavat Purana gives detail of Krishna acting likewise.


anAdi
(member)
10/23/06 07:52 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


All your posts are irrelevant, since you have your primary reference in Puranas.




Dear Atanu,
dandavat pranam,


I think that the author of Vedas and Puranas Himself contradict you.

See please the thread Evidence for the Truth, the statements of Vyasa-deva in Srimad-Bhagavatam as for example 14.20

rRg-yajuH sAmAtharvAkhyA / vedAz catvAra uddhRtAH
itihAsa-purANaM ca / paNcamo veda ucyate


The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge [the Vedas] were made separately. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the PurANas are called the fifth Veda.

And although He had compiled everything he knew, Vyasa-deva was still dissatisfied at heart as described in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.4.26-27:

O twice-born brAhman&#803;as, still his mind was not satisfied, although he engaged himself in working for the total welfare of all people.

Thus the sage, being dissatisfied at heart, at once began to reflect, because he knew the essence of religion, and he said within himself


As his spiritual master, Narada Muni was witnessing his lamentation, he said:

You have fully delineated the subject of Brahman as well as the knowledge derived therefrom. Why should you be despondent in spite of all this, thinking that you are undone, my dear prabhu? (S.B. 1.5.4)

VyAsadeva said: All you have said about me is perfectly correct. Despite all this, I am not pacified. I therefore question you about the root cause of my dissatisfaction, for you are a man of unlimited knowledge due to your being the offspring of one [BrahmA] who is self-born [without mundane father and mother]. (S.B. 1.5.5)

zrI-nArada uvAca
bhavatAnudita-prAyaM / yazo bhagavato 'malam
yenaivasau na tuSyeta /manye tad darzanaM khilam (S.B. 1.5.8)

zrI NArada said: You have not actually broadcast the sublime and spotless glories of the Supreme Lord. That philosophy which does not satisfy the Lord is considered inferior.

yathA dharmAdayaz cArthA / muni-varyAnukIrtitAH
na tathA vAsudevasya / mahimA hy anuvarNitaH (S.B. 1.5.9)

Although, great sage, you have very broadly described the four principles beginning with religious performances, you have not described the glories of the Supreme Personality, VAsudeva.

na yad vacaz citra-padaM harer yazo / jagat-pavitram pragRNIta karhicit
tad vAyasaM tIrtham uzanti mAnasA / na yatra haGsA niramanty uzik-kSayAH (S.B. 1.5.10)

Those words which do not describe the glories of the Lord, who alone can sanctify the atmosphere of the whole universe, are considered by saintly persons to be like unto a place of pilgrimage for crows. Since the all-perfect persons are inhabitants of the transcendental abode, they do not derive any pleasure there.

On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest. (S.B. 1.5.11)

Knowledge of self-realization, even though free from all material affinity, does not look well if devoid of a conception of the Infallible [Lord]. What, then, is the use of fruitive activities, which are naturally painful from the very beginning and transient by nature, if they are not utilized for the service of the Lord? (S.B. 1.5.12)

O VyAsadeva, your vision is completely perfect. Your good fame is spotless. You are firm in vow and situated in truthfulness. And thus you can think of the pastimes of the Lord in trance for the liberation of the people in general from all material bondage. (S.B. 1.5.13)

Learned circles have positively concluded that the infallible purpose of the advancement of knowledge, namely austerities, study of the Vedas, sacrifice, chanting of hymns and charity, culminates in the transcendental descriptions of the Lord, who is defined in choice poetry. (S.B. 1.5.22)

Rsi zaunaka asked: O SUta, the great and transcendentally powerful VyAsadeva heard everything from zrI NArada Muni. So after NArada's departure, what did VyAsadeva do? (S.B. 1.7.1)

zrI SUta said: On the western bank of the River SarasvatI, which is intimately related with the Vedas, there is a cottage for meditation at zamyAprAsa which enlivens the transcendental activities of the sages. (S.B. 1.7.2)

In that place, zrI VyAsadeva, in his own Azrama, which was surrounded by berry trees, sat down to meditate after touching water for purification. (S.B. 1.7.3)

Thus he fixed his mind, perfectly engaging it by linking it in devotional service [bhakti-yoga] without any tinge of materialism, and thus he saw the Supreme Enjoyer along with His maya (external energy), which was under full control. (S.B. 1.7.4)

So, this is the way Bhagavata-Purana or Srimad-Bhagavatam came into being. It is a revealed scripture which was written by Vyasa-deva as experienced by direct perception, not by having hear it from someone else. It is not only that Bhagavat Purana is a perfect evidence, but is also the sweetest evidence making the sage (Vyasa-deva) being pleased at heart.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/24/06 01:16 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada


Dear Anadi,

I maintain that all yor posts are irrelevant. They have no connection with the subject.

And one set of Puranas cannot over-rule Vedas.

Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; ------


YV iv. 4. 9.


(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; ----- Çipivista when put in place;----- Aditi when put in place;

Visnu when being taken down; ------ Rudra when offered; -----the heaven when arrived at completion.

End of citation.

The one who says "I" in everyone -- is he with a form or is he formless? Is He manifest or is he unmanifest? That "I", when manifest is all pervading Vishnu. That same "I" when offered worship is Rudra.


Please read these verses. One day the realisation will dawn that the being who is aware as the real "I" in you is the SELF. He is the seeing/seer/seen. These divisions as so called tattwas is for understanding and realising the ONE indescribale truth alone.



Rig Veda 9
saem>? pvte jin/ta m?tI/na< j?in/ta id/vae j?in/ta p&?iw/Vya> ,
j/in/ta¶erœ j?in/ta sUyR?Sy jin/teNÔ?Sy jin/taet iv:[ae>? . 9- 096- 05


Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu. 9.96.5


Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.


Param Atma has no progenitor. I am sorry. And as you have yourself said: Vishnu is Self born.The Self is Turiya --- shivoadvaitam.


And Vedas are eternal. Puranas are time constrained. They do not constitute shruti. Vedas worship Bhagwan as below:


Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |
yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan


O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.


Lord Krishna is logos of that. The way you know Lord Krishna is ignorance. First fully understand what Krishna says or show evidence of your claims from Vedas Samhitas.


And Lord is pratpara, param parastad, beyond definition of Param, which can only be among many. The truth is beyond comparison.


Svet. Up

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..


6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.


Shruti ParamaM parastaad is reserved for Bhagawan Shivah, one beyond comparison. Only very immature can say that Bhagwan is superior to this and that.




Om Namah Shivayya


anAdi
(member)
10/24/06 03:40 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu,
dandavat pranam,

you said: And one set of Puranas cannot over-rule Vedas.
And Vedas are eternal. Puranas are time constrained.


This is part of maya-vada philosophy. Seeing the Puranas under the jurisdiction of maya, is projecting the materiality of this world on the lilas of Bhagavan. To think the plays of Bhagavan in the material world would be under the jurisdiction of the material time is maya-vada.

Only atheists disguised as transcendentalists think than Puranas are not Veda.
The Puranas are Veda. This is even the verdict of the compiler of the Vedas, Sri Vyasa-deva, as recorded in Srimad-Bhagavatam 14.20

rRg-yajuH sAmAtharvAkhyA / vedAz catvAra uddhRtAH
itihAsa-purANaM ca / paGcamo veda ucyate


The four divisions of the original sources of knowledge [the Vedas] were made separately. But the historical facts and authentic stories mentioned in the PurANas are called the fifth Veda.

When Bhagavan comes in the material world to present his eternal lilas, he comes with his own abode and associates, and when He gets out of this world He takes them with Him.
Evidence can be found in Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.43, where Vyasa-deva says:

kRSNe sva-dhAmopagate / dharma-jJAnAdibhiH saha
kalau naSTa-dRzAm eSa / purANArko 'dhunoditaH


As Lord KRSNa accompanied by His own abode, prescribed duties, knowledge, etc departed, He left behind this (BhAgavata) PurANa which has arisen, as brilliant as the sun, for those who have lost their vision due to the dense darkness of ignorance in the age of Kali.

Bhagavan Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita that His lilas are not under the jurisdiction of the material time, and in this connection to see the Puranas as being maya (namely under the influence of the material time, is part of the maya-vada philosophy, you are presenting here as being vedic, but it isn’t:

janma karma ca me divyam / evaM yo vetti tattvataM
tyaktvA dehaM punar janma / naiti mAm eti so 'rjuna


My birth, My activities (and Myself) are all transcendental.
The one who really knows that (meaning one realizes it), when he leaves his body, will never be born again, never, (but) he attains Me (in the spiritual world), o Arjuna.



Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/24/06 04:30 AM
Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Dear Atanu,

dandavat pranama,

To those (tesSAM) who are constantly engaged (satata-yuktAnAM) to worship Me and sing My glories (bhajatAM ) serving Me with love and affection (prIti-pUrvakam), I give (dadAmi) the intelligence to connect – make a relation (buddhi-yogam by which (yena) they (te) will come (upayAnti) to Me (mAm).

As you can see from this verse Sri Krishna says that to the bhaktas, the devotees who do bhajana to Him with priti, He will give the intelligence (buddhi) to have a personal eternal relation to Him, and get into His eternal lila, according their way of worship.

Our gaudiya vaishnava acaryas are the living example of this sloka.






Namaskar,

Anadi you think that vedic sanyasis and present day sanyasis, who chant Rudram are not good sanyasis? This is what is called bigotism.

WRT to Gopa word: I said that it means protector and not a herdsman in literal terms. In this verse it refers to Sun as per Sayana and to Agni as per Nirukta. The following translation, based on Sayana, is given below to validate that.

RV 1.164.31 I have beheld the unwearied protector (gopam) of the universe, the sun, traveling upwards, the downwards by various paths; invested with aggregative and diffusive radiance, he revolves in the midst of the regions.

Shri Krishna travels in this way?

And I can show at least other hundred use of the word gopa referring mainly to Agni and other devas also. You are as bigoted as missionary Christians who also cite such things. For them this verse will give a proof that Christ is being referred. Even Moses may be referred. Please keep your bigoted attitude away


Regarding Syam: It means ‘to be’. It is part of the ASiya Vamiya Sukta wherein Bhagavati-Gauri, who is the cow that has become all, is prayed to be bhagavant, happy with the offerings.


The Asiya Vamiya Sukta also says the followings:

1.164.18 He who knows the protector of this (world) as the inferior associated with the superior and the superior associated with the inferior, he is a sage; but who in this world can expound (it)? whence is the divine mind in its supremacy engendered.

Lord Krishna is no doubt the manifested logos (which is sat and asat) but He represents an unmanifested truth, which is neither sat nor asat – indefinable but called Shivam, whose logos is Mahesvara as below:

Svet. Up,

4.18 yadaa.atamastaanna divaa na raatriH
na sannachaasachchhiva eva kevalaH .
tadaxara.n tat.h saviturvareNyaM
praGYaa cha tasmaat.h prasR^itaa puraaNii .. 18

4.18. When the light has risen, there is no day, no night, neither existence nor non-existence; Siva (the blessed) alone is there. That is the eternal, the adorable light of Savitri, - and the ancient praGYaa proceeded thence.

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..


6.7 We will know this mightiest one who is far above all the mighty – this summit of the gods and their godhead, king of kings and lord of lords, who towereth high above all summit and greatnesses. let us learn of god for he is this universes' master and all shall adore him.

Lord Shiva mahesvara is paramam parastad – beyond param. He is patim patinam paramam mahesvaram who resides in the heart cave as I. And He is worshipped as God in Vedas as below:

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |
yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan

If you still persist in your attitude then please do not claim that you are a Hindu who follows Vedas. And if you still persist that you follow Vedas ultimately then read the followings:


RV 8.85.4 Here Krishna is invoking you, O Ashvins, Lords of ample wealth. To drink the savoury Soma juice.
Listen, Heroes, to the singer's call, the call of Krishna lauding you, To drink the savoury Soma juice.

RV 8. HYMN XXXV. Asvins.
14 With Visnu and the Angirases attending you, and with the Maruts come unto your praiser's call. Accordant, of one mind with Surya and with Dawn, and with the Adityas, Asvins! come.


RV 1.101.01 Offer adoration with oblations to him who is delighted (with praise), who, with R.jis'van, destroyed the pregnant wives of Kr.s.n.a; desirous of protection, we invoke, to become our friend, him, who is the showerer (of benefits), who holds the thunderbolt in his right hand, attended by the Maruts.

Sama Veda XIX Soma Pavamana

1. Father of holy hymns, Soma flows onward, the father of the earth, father of heaven.
Father of Agni, Surya's generator, the father who begat Indra and Vishnu.

2. Brahman of Gods, the leader of the poets, Rishi of sages, chief of savage creatures,
Falcon amid the vultures, axe of forests, over the cleansing sieve goes Soma singing.
--------

Sama Veda XI Indra

1. That lofty power and might of thine, thy strength and thine intelligence,
And thy surpassing thunderbolt, the wish makes keen.
------
3. Vishnu in the lofty ruling power, Varuna, Mitra sing thy praise:
In thee the Maruts' company have great delight.

RV 9.096.05
sómaH pavate janitaá matiinaáM janitaá divó janitaá pRthivyaáH janitaágnér janitaá suúryasya janiténdrasya janitótá víSNoH

RV 9.096.05 The Soma flows, the generator of praises, the father of heaven, the father of the earth, the father of Agni, the father of the sun, the father who begot Indra and Vis.n.u.


Paramatma has no progenitor and is not begot by anyone. Lies do not hold. Ignorance does not hold. Vishnu is paramatma since Advaita is true and in no other way. He is the Tvam in Tattvamasi.


I know that the illness of asamadrishti is the main illness but still I repeat the following two verses, cited above, hoping that if not you but at least I may be benefited by the strengthening of my samadrishti – which Lord Krishna says is essential.


“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.


In case one does not read the full verses, the main points are summarized below:

“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; ---------.”

YV iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, ------Çipivista when put in place; ------- Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; ------

Rudra when offered; ----- the heaven when arrived at completion.


We worship this 'omnipresent I', picturing him as Shivam as Linga with a Bull and a Consort (shakti). Is there anything wrong? But we know that this Atma is nameless and formless, since it is unmanifest.


Dear Anadi please consider the verses with open mind. Are you not chasing Anya devata when Krishna says “I am” from within? This verse of Gita is presented to you. I am the Self, O Gudakesa, dwelling in the Hearts of all beings. I am the beginning and the middle and the end of all beings. 10:20..

Now this Self – Turiya is NAMELESS but has been called SHIVOADVAITAM in shruti. So, please do not claim that only Gaudiya or HK sanyasi’s are doing the correct thing. In fact HK followers have disfigured much of the Veda translations. I can show you the Gaudiya translation of Svet. Upanishad, if you wish.

Still I say, Lord Krishna is as dear to Shiva followers as is He to you. Do not try create bibhakti. Why not stick to objective criticism of Advaita philosophy instead?


Instead of citing inconsequential verses from Puranas, show me just one shruti verse wherein any other diety is shown as Param Parastad.

And I will bow down gracefully and accept that my understandind of Sat-Asat and Neither Sat-Nor Asat is wrong.

I believe that Sat in Sat-Asat is That which is Neither Sat-Nor Asat and that Sat is in you also.



Om Namah Shivayya

A note:

I forgot to add that hidden in a place within the amala purana Bhagavatam is the following to be found:

31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.




Om Namah Shivayya






Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/24/06 04:37 AM
Bigotism

Quote:

Dear Atanu,
dandavat pranam,

you said: And one set of Puranas cannot over-rule Vedas.
And Vedas are eternal. Puranas are time constrained.


This is part of maya-vada philosophy. Seeing the Puranas under the jurisdiction of maya, is projecting the materiality of this world on the lilas of Bhagavan. To think the plays of Bhagavan in the material world would be under the jurisdiction of the material time is maya-vada.

Only atheists disguised as transcendentalists think than Puranas are not Veda.
The Puranas are Veda. This is even the verdict of the compiler of the Vedas, Sri Vyasa-deva, as recorded in Srimad-Bhagavatam 14.20

rRg-yajuH sAmAtharvAkhyA / vedAz catvAra uddhRtAH
itihAsa-purANaM ca / paGcamo veda ucyate








Bigotism unlimited. Only you are Maya free is it? And those who rely on Vedas are full of Maya? And only those Puranas which you prefer to read are Sat?


Bigotism unlimited.


31. O Lord Girisa, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion and ignorance, the various directors of this material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu or the King of heaven, Mahendra.


The above verse from Bhagavatam stating that even Vishnu is incapable of knowing Girisha fully is Tamasic? Eh?


And when one checks with all the Vedic evidences provided one will clearly see the difference between Param And Paratpara.


Om Namah Shivayya




anAdi
(member)
10/24/06 07:45 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Anadi you think that vedic sanyasis and present day sanyasis, who chant Rudram are not good sanyasis? This is what is called bigotism.

WRT to Gopa word: I said that it means protector and not a herdsman in literal terms. In this verse it refers to Sun as per Sayana and to Agni as per Nirukta. The following translation, based on Sayana, is given below to validate that.

RV 1.164.31 I have beheld the unwearied protector (gopam) of the universe, the sun, traveling upwards, the downwards by various paths; invested with aggregative and diffusive radiance, he revolves in the midst of the regions.

Shri Krishna travels in this way?

And I can show at least other hundred use of the word gopa referring mainly to Agni and other devas also. You are as bigoted as missionary Christians who also cite such things. For them this verse will give a proof that Christ is being referred. Even Moses may be referred. Please keep your bigoted attitude away




Dear Atanu, dandavat pranam,

The answers fit better in the thread bhagavan tattva


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
10/24/06 11:03 AM
Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

I saw the thread and I found it even more inexplicable than this. What you are saying in that post is true but exactly for the opposite reasons.

With all respect to you Anadi Ji, I should say that I do not have any interest. May be after 10 years we may try again to find a common point. Till that time if you may find a shruti statement indicating Param Parastad Lord, then please invite me.


Bye. Best Wishes. Regards.

Om Namah Shivayya





Parnah Dhanika
(member)
10/25/06 06:14 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

>it is not my decision that what the Puranas say is true, it is Vyasa-deva the warrant for it.<
Claim of its authorship as veda vyaasa is only explained in the puraanas. This means, lack of evidence other than self-testimony which cannot be held in authority.


> Yes, you are perfectly right, dear Atanu
According to your … consciousness this is Brahman.
According my covered consciousness this is bhagavan Sri Krishna. <
Unfortunately there is a flaw in the interpretation - unless everything merges back into That; which means that when we perceive this process eternally i.e., independent of time[which is only the anthromorphic linear perception of change], everything IS god.

>> According to Bhagavata Purana The statement presented from Kh. Up. VI, 2, 1 <<
It gains no authority from any of the shruti therefore cannot be held in authority.

>>Rig Veda (1.12.164.31)<<
What classification are you exactly referring to? Vedic depth of verses goes upto three, not four. There is no 164th verse either.

>>When the Vedas speak of an imperishable gopa, they don't refer to Shiva, than there is no one of His lila where He acts like a gopa. Moreover Bhagavat Purana gives detail of Krishna acting likewise.<<
Vedas are of the highest authority and therefore self-evident in this situation. Therefore considering any puraana would be a great mistake, like mixing mud into nectar. First in authority is ALWAYS shruti, which states:

"He is called Brahma; Vishnu; Rudra; Shiva; Akshara; Swaraati; Kaalaagni Chandramaa" KAIVALYA UPNISHAD.

It is a bad assumption to think that vedas predict someone; for they're described as eternal scriptures thus will not predict the coming of a krishna whose incarnation is limited to a manvantara or such. It is also a bad assumption to think that bheeshma in vishnu sahasranama spoke of vishnu of puraanas because vishnu means 'all-pervading' which is one of the best names of god. Therefore, the assumption of vishnu or krishna is ruled out.


anAdi
(member)
11/15/06 12:05 PM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

>it is not my decision that what the Puranas say is true, it is Vyasa-deva the warrant for it.<

Claim of its authorship as veda vyaasa is only explained in the puraanas. This means, lack of evidence other than self-testimony which cannot be held in authority.






Describing what are the Vedic shastras (scriptures) the Candogya Upanisad (7.1.4) says that the Puranas and Mahabharata, generally known as histories, are the fifth Veda.
As previously presented this is also confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam (1.4.20).

All these shatras were manifested from the Supreme Lord Narayana. This is decribed in the Atharva Veda 11.7.24 and Madhyandina-sruti of Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10:

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

Therefore, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, which are itihasas, and according to Madhvacarya, the Pancaratras as well, are all accepted as bona fide Vedic shastras given by the Supreme Lord Narayana.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah
(Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah
(Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda."


asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama
vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

(Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
11/27/06 09:41 PM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


Describing what are the Vedic shastras (scriptures) the Candogya Upanisad (7.1.4) says that the Puranas and Mahabharata, generally known as histories, are the fifth Veda.
As previously presented this is also confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam (1.4.20).

All these shatras were manifested from the Supreme Lord Narayana. This is decribed in the Atharva Veda 11.7.24 and Madhyandina-sruti of Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10:

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

Therefore, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, which are itihasas, and according to Madhvacarya, the Pancaratras as well, are all accepted as bona fide Vedic shastras given by the Supreme Lord Narayana.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah
(Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah
(Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda."


asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama
vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

(Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."





You fail to provide anything concrete to show Param Parastad.

There is no contention on the point that Vak (shruti and itihasa as well) is from Lord only. If Self is not there, Pragnya does not exist and without Pragnya no Vak exists. But that does nothing to add any proof to your bigoted view. Vedic scripture, on the other hand say the following (and more):

Shri Rudram 1.10

pramuJNcha dhanvanastvamubhayorArtniyorjyAm.h |
yAshcha te hasta ishhavaH parA tA bhagavo vapa ||

(Shri Rudram: anuvAka 1; Rik 10)

bhagavo - O Bhagavan


O Bhagavan (God) Rudra! You are endowed with great lordship and worship (by others). Untie the bow string from the two ends of Your bow. Abandon the arrows in Your hand.

And Lord is pratpara, param parastad, beyond definition of Param, which can only be among many. The truth is beyond comparison.


Svet. Up

6.7 tamiishvaraaNaaM paramaM maheshvara.n
ta.n devataanaaM parama.n cha daivatam.h .
patiM patiinaaM paramaM parastaad.h\-
vidaama devaM bhuvaneshamiiDyam.h .. 7..


6.7 WE WILL KNOW THIS MIGHTIEST ONE WHO IS FAR ABOVE ALL THE MIGHTY – THIS SUMMIT AND GREATNESSES. LET US LEARN OF GOD FOR HE IS THIS UNIVERSES' MASTER AND ALL SHALL ADORE HIM.


Only very immature can say that Bhagawan is superior to this and that.

Om Namah Shivayya


anAdi
(member)
11/28/06 01:51 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu, Dandavat pranam,

You said:
“You fail to provide anything concrete to show Param Parastad.”

Please read in the thread Bhagvan tattva – The Truth about God – which describes that Parama (Supreme) Parastad (Transcendental), and of course I’ll continue to bring more evidence.


anAdi
(member)
11/28/06 03:39 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Quote:


Describing what are the Vedic shastras (scriptures) the Candogya Upanisad (7.1.4) says that the Puranas and Mahabharata, generally known as histories, are the fifth Veda.
As previously presented this is also confirmed in the Srimad Bhagavatam (1.4.20).

All these shatras were manifested from the Supreme Lord Narayana. This is decribed in the Atharva Veda 11.7.24 and Madhyandina-sruti of Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10:

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."

Therefore, the Mahabharata and Ramayana, which are itihasas, and according to Madhvacarya, the Pancaratras as well, are all accepted as bona fide Vedic shastras given by the Supreme Lord Narayana.

rcah samani chandamsi puranam yajusa saha
ucchistaj-jajnire sarve divi deva divi-sritah
(Atharva Veda 11.7.24)

"The Rg, Sama, Yajur and Atharva became manifest from the Lord, along with the Puranas and all the Devas residing in the heavens."

nama va rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama-veda atharvanas caturtha itihasa-puranah pancamo vedanam vedah
(Kauthumiya Chandogya Upanisad 7.1.4)

"Indeed, Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva are the names of the four Vedas. The Itihasas and Puranas are the fifth Veda."


asya mahato bhutasya nihsvasitam etad yad rg-vedo yajur-vedah sama
vedo’tharvangirasa itihasah puranam ityadina

(Madhyandina-sruti, Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad 2.4.10)

"O Maitreya, the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Vedas as well as the Itihasas and the Puranas all manifest from the breathing of the Lord."





There is no contention on the point that Vak (shruti and itihasa as well) is from Lord only.







Dear atanu, dandavat pranam,

I am pleased that you agree with this truth.

You also said:

But that does nothing to add any proof to your bigoted view.


...which is not quite a proper formulation. One should not make defaming afirmations on the address of anyone, one has an argument with, otherwise it degenerates becoming rajasic and tamasic.

And as you have seen I don't present my view, but evidence from the vedic knowledge, one should see it as a whole.




Atanu Banerjee
(member)
12/12/06 05:07 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Quote:



-You also said:

But that does nothing to add any proof to your bigoted view.





...which is not quite a proper formulation. One should not make defaming afirmations on the address of anyone, one has an argument with, otherwise it degenerates becoming rajasic and tamasic.


And as you have seen I don't present my view, but evidence from the vedic knowledge, one should see it as a whole.







It is a proper formulation since bigoted means prejudiced. When one disregards Vedas one can be termed prejudiced.

There is a verse in Rig Veda, the import of which I am placing here.

O, Indra, this is all lies. You have not destroyed anyone. Did you ever meet anyone other than yourself anywhere? Wherever you may have gone you have encountered yourself alone.


Consciousness is one and all. The truth of Advaita is very well there in Vedas itself.


anAdi
(member)
12/18/06 04:08 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



-You also said:

But that does nothing to add any proof to your bigoted view.





...which is not quite a proper formulation. One should not make defaming afirmations on the address of anyone, one has an argument with, otherwise it degenerates becoming rajasic and tamasic.


And as you have seen I don't present my view, but evidence from the vedic knowledge, one should see it as a whole.







There is a verse in Rig Veda, the import of which I am placing here.

O, Indra, this is all lies. You have not destroyed anyone. Did you ever meet anyone other than yourself anywhere? Wherever you may have gone you have encountered yourself alone.

Consciousness is one and all. The truth of Advaita is very well there in Vedas itself.



Dear atanu respectful dandavat pranam,

Everyone is more or less prejudiced, due to affiliation to a certain school of thought, but this does not make one of being bigot.
A bigoted person does not tolerate others, so far that she is full of hatred, and does not accept any dialog.
A bigoted person don’t accept any other evidence, except the one presented by the doctrine of one’s own school of thought.

Let’s take the verse you presented here as a proof for advaita-vada.

Please give the exact quotation of the verse to check the translation and the context.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
12/20/06 05:13 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


----.
A bigoted person don’t accept any other evidence, except the one presented by the doctrine of one’s own school of thought.





Exactly dear Anadi. You have defined it nicely now please analyse also.


Quote:


Let’s take the verse you presented here as a proof for advaita-vada.

Please give the exact quotation of the verse to check the translation and the context.






I will surely do it, but sometime later, since at the moment I am hard pressed on a so-called big project. I will place not one but many verses.

Regards.


Om Namah Shivayya





Atanu Banerjee
(member)
12/22/06 10:12 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada



10.054.02 When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?


Om Namah Shivayya


anAdi
(member)
01/10/07 05:58 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu, dandavat pranam,

To prove that “the truth of Advaita is very well there in Vedas itself”
you posted a false translation (probably taught by advaita teachers) of the verse 10.54.02 of the Rig Veda

O, Indra, this is all lies. You have not destroyed anyone. Did you ever meet anyone other than yourself anywhere? Wherever you may have gone you have encountered yourself alone.


But in the verse verse 10.54.02 of the Rig Veda it is neither said that Indra met himself, nor that he had encountered himself alone (as it would be one soul alone in the world, as per advaita-vada)
So, at my request for the exact quotation, you translated again the verse:

When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?

yadacarastanvA vAvRdhAno balAnIndra prabruvANo janesu |
mayet sa te yani yuddhanyahurnadya zatruM nanupurA vivitse ||
Rig Veda 10.54.2

When thou wast roaming, waxen strong in body, telling thy might, Indra, among the people, all that men called thy battles was illusion: no foe hast thou to-day, er erst hast found one.

What is false? The conception of Indra is false, who is blended by the false ego – aham-kara, and is boasting by his might. The name, fame and qualities of Indra are only false designations that a particular soul may get, due to her previous desire, and deeds.
In this false material bodily conception it might be that the soul which identifies herself as Indra, due to this illusion thinks she has foes, but this does not mean there is only one soul.

As previously posted I showed that the soul is an eternal individual entity, even if she choose “spiritual suicide” merging in the Brahman effulgence as a spark light, she cannot do “spiritual suicide”, she does not loose her real individual identity for a moment.

The moment such a soul trapped into the Brahman effulgence desires to act, she falls down from that position of apparent liberation, and because she is not qualified to get into Vaikuntha as an associate of the Lord, she have to get back into the material world, being tainted only by the desire to act, and she get an almost pure subtle body in the upper planetary portion of the material creation, where she can meet pure devotees or persons blended by the wish of being the controller - ishavara and the enjoyer – purusha, and she always has the liberty of choice.

See too the thread

http://spirituality.forumup.de/about19-spirituality.html


Sudarshan Rangaswamy
(member)
01/10/07 10:08 PM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Namaskar anAdi,

As you said, purANAs have to be accepted as pramANa because they were compiled by Sage vyAsa. However, the difficulty is that many recensions are available for every purANa that makes many quotations suspicious. Unless you can reproduce quotations from an old commentrator, it is unlikely anyone will take purANic quotes very seriously.

I, for instance, think that these anti mAyAvAdic quotes are interpolations. Just imagine, could anyone like Shankara expect to be taken seriously when purANAs describe thus? Were all people of his times illiterate? It is a different issue if mAyAvAda is right or wrong, but it is unlikely the purANAs say so.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
01/11/07 12:01 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Dear atanu, dandavat pranam,

-----
When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?

yadacarastanvA vAvRdhAno balAnIndra prabruvANo janesu |
mayet sa te yani yuddhanyahurnadya zatruM nanupurA vivitse ||
Rig Veda 10.54.2

When thou wast roaming, waxen strong in body, telling thy might, Indra, among the people, all that men called thy battles was illusion: no foe hast thou to-day, er erst hast found one.

What is false? The conception of Indra is false, who is blended by the false ego – aham-kara, and is boasting by his might. The name, fame and qualities of Indra are only false designations that a particular soul may get, due to her previous desire, and deeds.







Dear Anadi,

There is no end to this war of Vak. AS with the other translation (of Girisha) here also you come with a second opinion and a lot of explanations.

There is no end to it, since your mind, filled with Gunas, will not allow you to be peaceful and look for the ONE who is finding all excuses.


My point is very simple and devoid of any theory. Mandukya Upanishad says "Atma is Advaitam and One has to know it"..


One cannot know the Advaita, by remaining a second. It is an impossibilty.


It is very simple and rest is all vain argumentation of those who have not known the Self but claim to know God.


Vain. Vain. Vain.

Regards.

Om


anAdi
(member)
01/12/07 04:38 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu, respectful dandavat pranam,

you said:
There is no end to this war of Vak.


But
thinking in this way one has a wrong approach to the subject.
I am not your enemy.
...you know nobody is your foe.

you said:
AS with the other translation (of Girisha) here also you come with a second opinion and a lot of explanations.

Yes, and as you could see, in both cases
you started with wrong translations. They were so twisted that apparently would prove advaita vada .

you said:
There is no end to it, since your mind, filled with Gunas, will not allow you to be peaceful and look for the ONE who is finding all excuses.


If you look at my evidences, they are based not on my speculations, but on the vedic knowledge.

you said:
My point is very simple and devoid of any theory. Mandukya Upanishad says "Atma is Advaitam and One(?) has to know it"..


Again, please treat this subject as scientifically as possible and give the exact quotation in sanskrit for your evidences (if it is possible word for word), and than we can speak about translation and interpretation.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
01/16/07 02:16 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:


Dear atanu, dandavat pranam,

-----
When you proceed, Indra, increasing in form, and proclaiming your prowess among mankind, false is that your (wandering), false the combats which you have narrated; you (find) now no enemy (to attack), did you formerly find one?

yadacarastanvA vAvRdhAno balAnIndra prabruvANo janesu |
mayet sa te yani yuddhanyahurnadya zatruM nanupurA vivitse || Rig Veda 10.54.2

When thou wast roaming, waxen strong in body, telling thy might, Indra, among the people, all that men called thy battles was illusion: no foe hast thou to-day, er erst hast found one.

----




Namaskar,

And I do consider you a friend and thats why I have taken pains.



Untruth repeated does not become the truth, except to the one who tells it.

There is no "men called thy battles illusions". What is the purpose of saying : no foe hast thou to-day? Did you meet one before?


Similarly, in the other translation (which you created )
it is clear that Lord of Vaikuntha, Virincha, and Surendra often fail to appreciate the Self effulgence.


“Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8.

(Thou “I” art) all overcoming through Agni; self-ruling through the sun; lord of strength through might; creator with the bull; bountiful through the sacrifice; heavenly through the sacrificial fee; slayer of enemies through rage; supporter of the body through kindliness; wealth through food; through the earth he hath won; (thou art) eater of food with verses; increased by the Vasat cry; protector of the body through the Saman; full of light with the Viraj; drinker of Soma through the holy power; with cows he supporteth the sacrifice; with lordly power men; with horse and car bearer of the bolt; lord with the seasons; enclosing with the year; unassailable through penance; the sun with bodies.”

YV iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) Prajapati in mind, when come to the Soma; the creator in the consecration; Savitr in the bearing; Pusan in the cow for the purchase of the Soma; Varuna when bound (in the cloth); Asura in the being bought; Mitra when purchased; Çipivista when put in place; delighter of men when being drawn forward; the overlord on arrival; Prajapati being led on; Agni at the Agnidh’s altar; Brhaspati on being led from the Agnidh’s altar; Indra at the oblation-holder; Aditi when put in place; Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan when made wet; Yama when pressed out; drinker of unpurified (Soma) when being cleansed; Vayu when purifying; Mitra as mixed with milk; the Manthin when mixed with groats; that of the All-gods when taken out; Rudra when offered; Vayu when covered up; the gazer on men when revealed; the food when it comes; the famed of the fathers; life when taken; the river when going to the final bath; the ocean when gone; the water when dipped; the heaven when arrived at completion.



Vedas have given enough verses to show that the so-called Devas are not different from the one who says I in every one. They are all from the AaTma, which says I and which has been designated as advaita in shruti.

shaantaM shivamadvaitaM chaturthaM manyante sa aatmaa sa viGYeyaH .. 7 (Mandukya)


YV iv. 4. 9.
(Thou art) Prajapati -----Savitr --- Pusan ---- Varuna ----Asura --- Mitra when purchased; Çipivista ----delighter----the overlord ---Prajapati-- Agni----Brhaspati---Indra ----Aditi ---- Visnu when being taken down; Atharvan ---- Yama -drinker of unpurified (Soma) ---- Vayu ---- Mitra ---- ---Rudra when offered; ---- the famed of the fathers; life --- the river ----; the ocean --; the water ---; the heaven ----


It is however futile. Since you have decided to be blind because you feel shy of saying that "I was wrong", in public.


Carry on please. I have lost the motive, since I have no doubt. Best wishes for your spiritual life.

Regards,




anAdi
(member)
01/31/07 02:20 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu respectful Dandavat pranam

The verse you speak of, in the previous post says:

yadacarastanvA vAvRdhAno balAnIndra prabruvANo janesu |
mayet sa te yani yuddhanyahurnadya zatruM nanupurA vivitse ||
Rig Veda 10.54.2

When thou wast roaming, waxen strong in body, telling thy might, Indra, among the people,
all that men called thy battles was illusion: no foe hast thou to-day, er erst hast found one.


The verse says: “ all that men called thy battles was illusion” .

And again you quoted a part of the verse and twisted the meaning to the opposite,
by substituting “al that” with “there is no”:
<There is no "men called thy battles illusions".>
And the verse says:
all that men called thy battles was illusion”


anAdi
(member)
01/31/07 03:00 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu respectful Dandavat pranam
you said

Vedas have given enough verses to show that the so-called Devas are not different from the one who says I in every one. They are all from the AaTma, which says I and which has been designated as advaita in shruti.


And as evidence you quoted “Yajur Veda iv. 4. 8-9.

But in those verses there is no word that the demigods would be all one undifferentiated soul (a spiritual spark which is the life in every living being), as by advaita-vada.

Additional commentary:
As you have seen there is a Vaikunta world, which is spiritual (where the gunas of the material world do not exist) and the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are all spiritual personalities engaged in different loving services to the Lord of the Vaikuntha worlds: Narayana in His innumerable different spiritual manifestation.

On the other side it is also true that some souls which were not qualified for the loving divine service (bhakti) for the Lord, have no entrance in the spiritual worlds, but as they are free from any material attachment, thy get out of the material world (nir-vana – out of the dark forest of material existence) and get into light – the spiritual effulgence of the Lord- the Brahman effungence. These souls are neither in the spiritual world nor in the material world.


anAdi
(member)
01/31/07 04:59 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu respectful Dandavat pranam

You said:
Carry on please. I have lost the motive, since I have no doubt. Best wishes for your spiritual life

All my best wishes go to you, and I thank you for your teachings in this interesting discussion.


Atanu Banerjee
(member)
03/06/07 08:05 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear anadi,

Namskar,

I repeat:
Quote:



My point is very simple and devoid of any theory. Mandukya Upanishad says "Atma is Advaitam and One has to know it"..
One cannot know the Advaita, by remaining a second. It is an impossibilty.

It is very simple and rest is all vain argumentation of those who have not known the Self but claim to know God.






Om Namah Shivayya



anAdi
(member)
03/09/07 12:28 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Quote:

Dear anadi,

Namskar,

I repeat:
Quote:



My point is very simple and devoid of any theory. Mandukya Upanishad says "Atma is Advaitam and One has to know it"..

It is very simple and rest is all vain argumentation of those who have not known the Self but claim to know God.






Om Namah Shivayya






Dear Atanu, dandavat pranam,

It is true that atma (the soul) is advaita ( is not like material body made of the dualities of the material world).
But as I've already given evidence from shastra, there is not only one soul as the advaita-vada states but uncountable many souls as eternal entities that exist in the eternal, blissful spiritual world and enjoy the company of a specific form of the Lord, they worshiped and loved
1. the time of their bondage in maya, (so according our way of worship, we attain a specific spiritual realm.

- If we worship the people or the reaches if this world we get this world and the false and temporary identity in every temporary "rebirth" or
-if we worship the light of the Lord, we go in that effulgence of the Lord - Brahma-jioty, and have no access to the spiritual world because of lack of love for any of the forms of the Lord in which He tries to reciprocate with His dear ones or
- if we worship a particular eternal Form of the Lord, we get His eternal association in one of his "chambers" in the spiritual eternal realm - antaranga region of existence.

2. directly in the spiritual world for the souls that directly chose in the spiritual world from the tatashta region (between the spiritual and material worlds - see the thread about the nature of the soul)or

3. the souls that are in the category of direct expansions of the Lord in the spiritual world(kaya-viuha) that never been in the tatashta region (causal ocean) or the bahiranga region (material worlds).

You also said:
One cannot know the Advaita, by remaining a second. It is an impossibilty.

This "undertanding" emphasizes the sat aspect (eternal existence) of the Lord, and the idea of melting one's existence into the existence of the Lord, which one may wrongly identify with (we are never the Lord, but small kids of Him), and let aside the prema-ananda aspect of the Lord, which is a transcendental Personality one may be in love with.

The pure divine love is the innate attraction of the soul towards the Lord.
Krishna dasa Kaviraja Gosvami writes in Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya lila 22.107), that:

"The divine love for The All Attractive -Krishna-prema is an eternally established reality of the soul; it is not brought about by sadhana (the practical process). It manifests itself in the purified soul by the performance of the various limbs of bhakti beginning with hearing - shravan–adi about the pastimes of the Lord.

The meaning is that, when the soul got cleansed from the coverings of material attachments, she attains the state of pure (transcendental) goodness – shuddha sattva, and in this state, by practicing the limbs of saddhana bhakti, beginning with hearing (shravan –adi) about the pastimes of the Lord, the rays of love will awaken “on the horizon of the heart” as Rupa Gosvami says in Bhakti Rasa-amrita Sindhu:

"When the soul -atmA attains her pristine state of pure goodness - zuddha-sattva and a specific vizeSa loving relation has been established between the soul and the Lord, than the rays of the divine attraction - prema-suryAmzu manifest - sAmyabhAk as his innate consciuousness –citta, which is melted – mAsrNya by a blend of divine tastes – rucibhizand one attains the state of Bhava."



Atanu Banerjee
(member)
03/28/07 11:36 PM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Anadi Namaskar,

One one side you say that Atma is advaita. On the other you say that there are innumeralble souls.

Don't you think that our definitions are not matching? What you call soul is not my understanding of Atma, since as per Mandukya, Atma is unchangeable and advaita. And as per Lord's statement in Gita, Atma is achedyo -- uncuttable.

Lord in Gita uses the term, purusha engrossed in prakriti for the kind of soul you are talking about. That is the whole point of sadhana -- to disengage the so-called soul from Prakriti and see it as 'na lipayate'.

There is no denying that Bhagwan is karuna avatar, who appears just to relieve the anguish and difficulties that comes from attachment to forms thinking them to be permanently real. And there is no one higher than Bhagawan.

If you enquired seriously, you would have found that "I" is not a form. It is pure awareness of existence. Beneath this awareness lies the Pragnya -- Sarvesvara sarvasya Yoni. And this Pragnya is a state of Turiya advaita shivo atma, which is unchangeable.

I have possibly asked of you before and I will ask you again. Mandukya Upanishad, Gita, and most scriptures describe atma as shivoadvaitam. And these scriptures exhort us to know this Atma, which is Brahman.

Now tell me how a soul which considers itself as one among many souls, know the advaita atma? Can you know the advaita atma as a second -- as another? In that case, Atma does not remain Atma and Advaita does not remain Advaita. Another cannot be atma (the very me) and when another is there advaita is not there.

Till one does not attain the jnana that whatever forms and their boundaries the seer within cognises are nothing but Lord's own Pragnya, the perception of many different from me will remain. That's why Vedas says that Pragnya is Brahman. That's why Lord Krishna says: when perplexed by what is heard and what is seen, mind will know the truth (Self) in samadhi.


It is essential to know the Self, else how do you know who is cognising and worshipping Bhagawan?

For this Shankara jnana is not Mayavada -- just the reverse. It says that in reality there is no Maya, only an ignorance of one's true nature is Maya. Taking transitory as the self is Maya.

I am not saying that one can equate Bhagawan with Atanu or Anadi. Sarvottama is absolutely Na Lipayate. Anadi, by his own thought is fully Lipayate. Atanu is half way through (hehe).


Regards,

Om Namah Shivayya



anAdi
(member)
04/09/07 02:49 AM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear Atanu, dandavats,

you wrote:

On one side you say that Atma is advaita. On the other you say that there are innumeralble souls.
Don't you think that our definitions are not matching?


Answer:

Well, your shankara interpretation of the quality of the soul called advaita is that there is only one soul.
My vaishnava interpretation of the quality of the soul called advaita is that, the soul is not dual – a-dvaita i.e. not material.

1. You believe that the adavaita quality of the soul would refer the quantity, but as I previously showed it refers the quality of the soul, of being absolute – advaita, not material – dvaita – dual.

There is no logic that stated that if an object is not dual, than there is no other object with the same quality.

2. I presented evidence in this thread from Bhagavat Purana, that in the spiritual world called Vaikuntha, there are innumerable souls that eternally serve the Lord.
The Lord is eternal,
the souls are eternal,
the divine devotional service -bhakti- to the Lord is eternal.

Only mayavada based on the false interpretations of advaita, pretends Bhagavan, the souls, and their devotional divine service to the Lord would be temporary manifestations, and by that would be maya – not eternal.

In the Mandukya Upanishad is not described only this advaita quality of the soul.
As you said:
“What you call soul is not my understanding of Atma, since as per Mandukya, Atma is unchangeable and advaita.”

The quality of being unchangeable is pointing again on the spiritual nature of the soul.
Only that which is material is changeable.
There is no logic that stated that if an object is unchangeable, than there is no other object with this quality.

You also brought this argument as evidence that there is only one soul:
And as per Lord's statement in Gita, Atma is achedyo -- uncuttable.


This statement of Bhagavan Sri Krishna was an indication to Arjuna, that the sword cannot cut the soul, namely a material object has no effect on the soul, which is spiritual, and in this connection the Lord gives many more example in the same part of His discourse to Arjuna.
There is no ground to think, on the account of this statement, that there would be only one soul.

BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (2.1.20) states clearly that from the supreme Lord innumerable souls emanate

yathAgneH kSudrA visphuliNgA vyuccaranti
evam evAsmad AtmanaH sarvANi bhUtAni vyuccaranti


“Innumerable jivas (souls) - sarvANi bhUtAni emanate (vyuccaranti) from the Suprem Soul (Atman), like tiny (kSudrA) sparks (visphuliNgA) from a fire (AgneH).”

And the Lord also says in Bhagavad-gita that there was no time to say these souls didn’t exist (BG 2.12), because their “creation” took place outside of the material worlds, and as such they are absolute. And in the same verse the Lord says that they never cease to exist.

Not that the souls will dissolve in one soul. That is why Sri Krishna says:

Na Tv evAhaM jAtu nAsaM / na tvaM neme janAdhipAH
Na caiva na bhaviSyAmaH / sarve vayam ataH param


“Most certainly tu eva there never was a time na jAtu that I did not exist aham na Asam nor you na tvam nor these personalities na jana adhipAH.
Also ca hereafter ataH param all of us sarve vayam certainly eva will not cease to exist na bhaviSyAmaH”.


anAdi
(member)
04/09/07 08:59 AM
Re: Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu, dandavats,

you also said:

Lord in Gita uses the term, purusha engrossed in prakriti for the kind of soul you are talking about. That is the whole point of sadhana -- to disengage the so-called soul from Prakriti and see it as 'na lipayate'.


But

The soul, or the living being – bhutani in previously quoted BRhad-AraNyaka UpaniSad (2.1.20) is not an illusion but an eternal, spiritual object – vastava vastu, see the previuous post.

There are different types of sadhana – spiritual process, and as such they give different different results.
Sadhana bhakti has not the goal to attain the glowing light of the Lord- brahman.
Not all the spiritual roads leed to the same destination.
This is clearly explained in Bhagavata Purana:

In Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11 it is stated:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas / tattvaM yaj jJAnam advayam
Brahmeti paramAtmeti / bhagavAn iti zabdyate


The ones that have seen the Truth - tattva vidas say -vadanti that –tat
the Absolute Truth -tattvam —is known yat jJAnam as nondual - advayam
Brahman - brahma ,
the Supersoul paramAtmA ,
the Supreme Personality - bhagavAn ,
as revealed though the transcendental sound - iti zabdyate.

Here Vyasa deva explains that the Absolut Truth is not two (advayam) but three: Brahman, paramAtmA, bhagavAn.
1. The meaning of not being two is of not being dual, which means that He is not illusory as the material manifestations.
2. The same Absolut Truth, which is not dual can be perceived in thre principal different ways:
Brahman - brahma ,
the Supersoul paramAtmA ,
the Supreme Personality – bhagavAn
because of the different types of sadhana or types approaching the Absolut Truth.

If one approaches the Lord in the form of Brahman, than He reveals Himself to the sadhaka in that form, as the Lord Himself says in Bhagavad-gita:
ye yathAmAM prapadyante tAMs tathaiva bhajAmy aham,
(The result of what you get, depends on (sadhana) the way you worship, or meditate on Me)

Here Vyasadeva doesn’t say that the personal form of the Lord – bhagavAn is illusory (the core teaching of mAyAvada), but that bhagavAn is the Absolute Truth
The Absolute Truth is non dual, but at the same time, He is perceived differently. He manifests in many forms to reciprocate the way one worshisps Him and enjoy pastimes, because He is full of rasa (rsa vai saH).
As the Supersoul, He is bound to monitor and maintain the outside material world.
As the Supreme Personality, He enjoys unlimited rasa in the company of His devotees, and this is not illusory, then He is not made of mAya.

In the next verse Vyasa-deva, gives an explains about the type of sadhana that reveals one of the eternal forms of the Lord (Srimad Bhagavatam 1.2.11), namely through bhakti sadhana.

tac zraddadhAnA munayo / jJAna-vairAgya-yuktayA
pazyanty Atmani cAtmAnaM / bhaktyA zruta-gRhitayA


That sages – tac munayo which have the treasure of transcendental faith - zraddadhAnA and are equipped with knowledge and renunciation - jJAna-vairAgya-yuktayA , they (can) see the The Origin of all souls - pazyanty Atmani and the soul cAtmAnaM by rendering devotional service bhaktyA , as given in the revealed scriptures— zruta-gRhitayA .

The process of bhakti has three phases-
- sadhana bhakti, which is on the material platform, and whose goal is to awake one’s dormant love – bhava
- bhava bhakti, - when the sprout of love flourished but one has not yet attained his spiritual perfect body – sva rupa, or siddha deha.
- Prema bhakti – when one attains a specific type of spiritual body made of love, of a specific aroma, which is meant for a specific type of divine loving exchange with the Lord.



anAdi
(member)
04/10/07 02:37 PM
Re: Lack of Evidence for the origins of maya-vada

Dear atanu,dandavat,

you wrote

If you enquired seriously, you would have found that "I" is not a form. It is pure awareness of existence. Beneath this awareness lies the Pragnya -- Sarvesvara sarvasya Yoni. And this Pragnya is a state of Turiya advaita shivo atma, which is unchangeable.


The answer
to this enquiry is in the verse 2.10.6 from Srimad Bhagavatam

nirodho 'syAnuzayanam AtmanaH saha zaktibhiH
muktir hitvAnyathA rUpaM sva-rUpeNa vyavasthitiH
.

Here it is explained
the difference anyatH . between the merging nirodhaH. of the living entities AtmanaH .and the other energies saha zaktibhiH. of the Lord asya. in His body, as He is lying down (in the Karana Jala) anuzayanam., (at the time of the winding up of the cosmic manifestation which is called nirodha), and the liberation muktiH, which is attained when one gives up hitvA the (temporary acquired) forms rUpam and is situated in (his true, eternal, spiritual) vyavasthitiH own form sva-rUpeNa.

In this own form - sva rupena, one is engaged in eternal loving devotion

The part of the spiritual world called Vaikuntha is replete with personalities, whose eternal own forms are simmilar to the Lord of Vaikuntha, but:

durApA hy alpa-tapasaH / sevA vaikuNTha-vartmasu
yatropagIyate nitya / deva-devo janArdanaH
(S.B. 3.7.20)

For the one whose austerity is meagre alpa-tapasaH, the devotional service in the abode of the Lord sevA vaikuNTha is certainly rarely obtainable durApA hy, for those on that path – vartmasu. Whereas yatra - the Lord of all Lords deva devo, the controller of the living entities jana-ardanaH is eternally glorified and worshiped yatropagIyate nitya .

The Lord is eternal, bhakti is eternal, and the bhaktas are eternal.
Maya-vada says the Lord is a manifestation of maya, bhakti is maya, and bhaktas are maya, which are obviously false alegations.
That is why one should engage in one's own true dharma - nitya dharma - shuddha bhakti - pure devotional loving service, which begings with sadhana bhakti, by which one attains sambhanda - an eternal loving relation to the Lord.


narAH sUrya-prabhAs tatra / zitAMzu-sama-darzanAH
tejasA durNirikSyAz ca / devAnAm api yAdava


Lord BrahmA said: My four sons Sanaka, SanAtana, Sanandana and Sanat-kumAra, who were born from my mind, are your predecessors. Sometimes they travel throughout all the worlds (material and spiritual) without any definite desire. (SB 3.15.12)


ta ekada bhagavato /vaikuNThasyAmalAtmanaH
yayur vaikuNTha-nilayaM / sarva-loka-namaskRtam
(SB 3.15.13)

Once upon a time – ekada, being freed from all material contamination – AmalAtmanaH they – te entered – yayur the abode named VaikuNTha - vaikuNTha-nilayaM, of that Supreme Lord bhagavato, who dwells in VaikuNTha – vaikuNThasyA, and is worshiped by the residents of all the planets - sarva-loka-namaskRtam.

From this recount of Lord BrahmA you can see that they didn’t merge with Brahman, as per advaita-vada but they entered VaikuNTha, and they kept their pure, spiritualized bodies.

vasanti yatra puruSAH / sarve vaikuNTha-mUrtayaH
ye ’nimitta-nimittena / dharmeNArAdhayan harim
(SB 3.15.14)

All persons - puruSAH sarve that live there - vasanti yatra, have the form (similar) of the Lord of vaikuNTha - vaikuNTha-mUrtayaH. They worship – Adhayan the Suprem Lord – harim, due to- nimittena their own true, innate, propensity (bhakti) – dharmeNA, without any desire for sense gratification – animitta.

Also from the story of Ajamila recounted in the six Canto from Srimad BhAgavatam one can see that the All Attractive has messengers (personalities of the spiritual world) that he sends to bring to Him, in the spiritual world those persons that are qualified for the personal liberation:


ajAmilo 'py athAkarNya / dUtAnAM yama-kRSNayoH
dharmaM bhAgavataM zuddhaM / trai-vedyaM ca guNAzrayam
bhaktimAn bhagavaty Azu / mAhAtmya-zravaNAd dhareH
anutApo mahAn AsIt / smarato 'zubham AtmanaH

Srimad BhAgavatam 6.2.24-25

After hearing athAkarNya (the discourses between) the order carriers - dUtAnAM, of the King of Discipline (punisher of the dead) - yama and those of the The All Attractive (Supreme Lord) - kRSNayoH,
regarding the pure duty dharmaM zuddhaM (of the soul AtmanaH)
related to the Lord bhAgavataM
and the material prescribed duties ca guNAzrayam according the three Vedas - trai-vedyaM
a devotee of the Lord - bhaktimAn bhagavaty immediately - Azu
glorifies and hears about the Lord - mAhAtmya-zravaNAdhareH
Ajamila very greatly regreted - anutApo mahAn
remembering smarato
the inauspicious activities - azubham done by himself - AsIt AtmanaH.

A similar story where the messengers of the Supreme Lord came in the material world is recounted in the case Dhruva Maharaja, see Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4 Chapter 12.



Contact Us | Privacy statement Hindunet Online

Generated in 1.726 seconds in which 0.019 seconds were spent on a total of 4 queries. Zlib compression disabled.



More Information about HinduNet Inc.
Privacy Statement
The Hindu Universe is a HinduNet Inc., website.
Copyrighted 1994-2003, HinduNet Inc.
http://www.hindunet.com/forum/printthread.php?Cat=&Board=godphilosophy&main=69876&type=thread